Home Forums Hunting & Shooting General Big Game Another Partition Failure

Klik,

My experience with the pre-TSX's was similar to yours, though in the 2-3 years just before the TSX appeared Barnes seemed to have licked all the early problems--except the fouling. The bullets from that era shot very well in several of my rifles, and opened up nicely. Even when they lost petals (always due to hitting heavy bone, in my experience) the front of the bullet still expanded some, and was quite flat. The 6.5mm 120 X from the axis deer measures .41 across the front end, a lot bigger than .264!

The problem I've seen with the TSX's is an occasional failure to open, sometimes at all and sometimes only part-way. The animal dies but it can take a long time, and the blood trail is very thin. So far this has only happened in calibers under .30, probably because of the tiny hollow-point.

It hasn't happened at all in Tipped TSX's, or any other tipped mono-bullet I've seen used. The tipped bullets also seem to open a little wider, probably due to the much larger hollow-point under the tip. The tipped monos kill somewhat quicker than the hollow-points, and kill quite well when they hit exactly the right place, such as the top of the heart and both lungs, especially when driven fast.

But one of the reasons I tend to use more fragmentingt bullets these days is they kill well even when put a little behind the shoulder. I am definitely a meat hunter, even when after trophies, and Eileen and I have plenty of fine ways to cook shoulder meat. I'd much rather put a VLD a hand's-width behind the shoulder, and have an animal go down within 20 yards, than put a tougher bullet of any kind right into the shoulder and spine to drop it right there. This doesn't mean I won't use the shoulder/spine shot, but I'd rather not--and a fragmenting bullet behind the shoulder chews up less meat than a tough bullet in the shoulder, and kills quickly.

Thanks, John.

A question, one you may know something about. You mentioned the early problems, other than fouling, being resolved. I previously alluded to a bullet with rings cut in the shank. Perhaps they were even called "Ringed Bullets"; I don't remember. It seems to me that they disappeared around the time Barnes started making the grooved-shank TSX. Do you know if there was any connection between the two events, (other than the obvious logical deduction Barnes might have made)?

That's the problem. I can't see shooting a bullet that expensive. Luckily, the Speer Deep Curls (270 gr) shoot great!

Klik,

As far as I know the grooves on the TSX came about because of conversations betwen Randy Brooks and a noted gun magazine editor. But I wasn't there.

Grooves on bullet shanks have been around for quite a while. Of course cast bullets immediately come to mind, but there have been other "hard" bullets with grooves over the years--and right now I can think of three brands of solid-shanked bullets other than TSX's with ringed shanks.

The same year I started using them Brad and the results were a nightmare on elk.

Out of 40 plus plus elk I've killed, over 30 were killed with the 280/160 NP combo and no recovered bullets. Same goes with the 338/250 NP 30/200 NP's and 6.5/140 NP's.

I have no use for Monolithic bullets.

Check out GS Custom Bullets from South Africa, they have multiple smaller grooves.

Interesting that you bring that up, Jorge... I just turned in a review on a new .338 after testing half a dozen factory loads. The rifle did not like a couple of Winchester loads. With TTSX, it averaged 1.5 in., which of course is perfectly acceptable. No, what really upset me was the fact that the most consistently accurate load was Federal's 210 gr. partition (which shoots just under MOA with boring consistency), followed very, very closely by Federal's 250 gr. partition load.

Now I'm going to have to buy the damn thing -- and just before I spend money on Christmas and SHOT, to boot...

By the way, I tested that 210 last week on a red stag spike for the freezer. Yeah, yeah, massive overkill, but I was careful with placement. Quartering away shot... the partition entered at the last rib and exited just behind the off shoulder, happily sparing meat. Everything in between was pulverized. Clearly another partition failure...

Wow!

I figure for for the 444 Marlin, I will work up loads with the Sierra 250, and switch it for the PT and fine tune as needed. Shouldn't need to use many PT's and I like the insurance. Probably not needed, but it doesn't hurt either.

Dawgin'it: Rest assured the Partition was deliberately designed to perform that way....it is not an accident of a "flawed" design.

From a practical standpoint,and whether a guy likes the bullet or not) the bullet is so well known in BG hunting circles I doubt many have to be told how it works, and I bet Nosler's sales would continue at current rates even if they never spent another dime hawking it.Most users take the cues from dead animals, not advertising photos.

Since you have used them before one thing you may have noticed is that a Partition recovered (when you can find one) from (say0 a 400-500 yard elk, will look almost exactly the same as the one driven at near muzzle velocity into the same animal....ie, both expanded back to the Partition or pretty close, which if you think about it,is really pretty remarkable considering the vast differences in impact velocity between the two.

There are not a lot of bullets capable of pulling this off,and I doubt very much that this is the result of any flawed design.

Well said Bob. It is very unique in that it does the same exact thing, everytime..

A general comment:

I first noticed the conviction on the part of some hunters that retained weight was the "secret" to the killing powder of expanding bullets in the 1980's--not too long after Bob Hagel's book on handloading for big game came out.

Bob was one of the first gun writers to really hammer on premium bullets as the best solution for hunting game larger than deer, but when the book was published only two premium bullets existed, at least in America, the Nosler Partition and the Bitteroot Bonded Core. Apparently the book created the assumption that more weight retention killed better.

In the 80's some other premium bullets appeared, mostly bonded, though one also had a partition jacket. The Barnes X appeared in the late 80's, and a lot of people got excited about the 100% weight retention (at least some of the time) versus the 90% weight retention of Trophy Bonded Bear Claws and Swift A-Frames.

Eventually a great many big game hunters started judging bullets on weight retention and penetration only. 100% and "pass-throughs" became necessary even for killing 100-pound whitetail does, rather than how quickly animals died.
This entire phenomenon is no doubt behind the attitude of Dawgin'it and some other hunters.

But I do wonder what Bob Hagel would think of the phenomenon.

The 150gr 7mm Partition is pretty wicked on large game from STW velocities.Yet to recover any from moose ect.

Yeah, the 150 works real well, but a lot of people forget Nosler makes a 7mm Partition between 140 and 160 grains. The 150 also sometimes shoots more accurately than the 140 or 160 in some rifles.

That reminded me of a few big game kills I've been in on with that bullet. This buck was killed by a pal shooting a 7 STW and 150gr Partition. The range was 406 yards. It was 20* below that morning.

My gunsmith friend says the same regarding the 150's.

Pat,

Looks like a really dead (and pretty good!) mule deer to me.

The first animal I shot with a150 Partition was a good Alberta mule deer at right around 300 yards. (Dunno exactly how far, as it was pre-laser, but that's what the reticle and my paces agreed on.) Broke major bone in both shoulders and exited, so dunno how much weight it retained....

My experience with Partitions is obviously more limited than some on here, but I've never had a "failure". I did recover a couple of 250s from a bull moose shot from my 340 Wby at about 165 yards. They each retained around 70% weight retention.

Regarding the big 7's: I preferred the 175gr in both my #1 Ruger in 7 Rem Mag at a tad over 3000 fps (26") and from my 7mm Wby (24") at the same speed. With a BC of .519 and an SD of .310, it seems to me (and it did seem to me)that you'd be ready for just about any scenario. I really couldn't think of a better load for anything from wolf (or antelope) to moose (or bison), and Plains Game, or grizzly!

Anyway, I never recovered the one I fire into a black bear at 60 yards quartering towards me. It struck at the juncture of neck and shoulder and made exit just in front of the off-side hip. The bear was DRT. That was the 175 from the Weatherby.

On the other hand, I've had what I'd consider a couple of "disappointments" with the Barnes-X and TSX. Neither expanded on bear. The first a 200gr - X from my .35 Whelen at 2800 fps, range 90 yds on a large bear and the second a 350 TSX from my .458 WM leaving at 2750 at the same range that pocked a hole through a 200 lb bear from center chest to just in front of hip that by all evidence never expanded either! That bear went 40 yds, the farthest any bear has ever gone on me when hit solidly from a .458" bullet! Most are DRT, even from a hardcast!

A 400gr-X or TSX from a 416 Rigby broadside through the lungs of a trophy lion did not kill it! Ganyana (Don Heath) had to finish it with his 9.3 X 62 using a 286 Norma Oryx. The photo clearly shows they both penetrated the lion but the exit hole made by the Oryx (sp) was at least 2X the diameter of the Barnes-X. I have no trouble believing it! Ganyana wrote in an article that the Barnes X was too tough for lion and he wouldn't recommend it in the larger calibers.

BTW, I'm now using the 286 Nosler Partition in my 9.3 X 62 based on the word of MD and P. Shoemaker, and my own limited experience.

Bob

www.bigbores.ca

I know for sure I was one of those people...

Looking back, like John said, we never had the range and selection of bullets then that are available now.There were basically C&C's and Partitions;in factory stuff the CoreLokt was considered good and the WW Power Point,in some calibers.Magnum calibers were popular and you did have to watch what you shot because what Hagel noticed,along with some others was that certain designs would break up under high velocity,and penetration sometimes suffered.

When the Bitterroot came along(really it had been around since the late 60's or early 70's)it was treated like a phenom because it was one of very few bullets that could handle high velocity from magnum cases(in fact it was designed to do exactly that).Not only Hagel but John Wooters had a hand in popularizing it through articles in Rifle magazine,where he and Jack Carter took the Bitterroots to Africa and used them on all manner of game).They did what some hunters wanted and indeed do retain a very high percentage of thier weight and expand to a large frontal area;as for me I think it did help with magnum cartridges.

I jumped on the band wagon hard,much like Barnes fans do today.

Only problem was that the bullets were scarce and very hard to get....they were hand made one at a time,and in batches for a caliber. With small output,you might not see any given weight and caliber for several years,and you could only buy a max of 200 at a time.So,you sent Bill a check,sat back,and waited.This lack of supply and high demand created sort of a black market among Bitterroot users,and they traded among fans like cocaine or precious gems....it was fun and in pre Internet days you corresponded with many hunters from all over. I still have friends today from other parts of the country whom I met trading Bitterroots, RinB being among them.

In any event,it was apparent there was a void in the market place and this caused the invention of the original TBBC by Carter and the Swift Aframe by Lee Reid.Both these bullets eventually found their way into factory ammo, especially for big African stuff and led the way for new cartridges like the 416 Remington.

As to the killing part,I think the weight retention part of the whole deal was just a by-product of the way the bullet worked,not the reason for its' effectivness(kinda like we expect a Partition to expand back to the Partition).The BBC was made of pure cooper, very heavy jackets,and pure lead cores.Steigers was fussy about material.They were very tough,and you rarely saw a petal shear off...under extreme stress from high velocity the expanded portion would tend to fold back along the shank before it fractured and came off...in fact that is exactly what Steigers wanted,and why he recommended minimum velocity levels and fast twists...each helped bullet expansion.

They are good and reliable killers;sometime spectacular....like the Barnes, they can handle as much velocity as you can give them,expand to a generally very wide frontal area and maintain that through the wound channel.And also it was recommended to drop down in size one notch...you could use a 180 from a 30/06,and it would "work",but generally you were better served with a 165 that started faster.

Like John mentions above, many associated the high weight retention with the killing ability but I have come to realize(after using them for 3 decades) that it was not the weight retention that "killed";it was the large frontal area engendered by the construction and high impact speed.By "large" I mean 7mm's expanded to over .60 caliber, and 375's to over 3/4" inch.This created what JeffO refered to as a lot of "blunt trauma".....I can't think of a better description.

At one point I ran about a dozen kills on animals from pronghorn to elk in size with that instant DRT, lights out effect.Looking back, these were all from cartridges generating high velocity,ie 300 magnums,7mm mags, the 270 and 280.I have opened up deer and elk hit with them where you could not really ID the lungs,everything having that soup effect.At long distances where velocity has fallen off,the effect is not quite so dramatic;nor from standard cartridges,as I have noticed the Bitterroot works better from magnum cartridges than standards, expecially as distance increases.They still kill,just not as dramatically.

Some will disgaree but I think that a big portion of the killing effect of some of the softer bullets, and those great big exits and massive trauma we see,is due to large frontal area being generated;no doubt the shrapnel contributes to all this as a secondary effect,but I bet if we could do visuals of the passage of some of these bullets like the VLD,BT and maybe others through animals,we would see the soft cores and thin jackets creating a large frontal area that rapidly dissapates in the animal,but nonetheless is causing the bulk of the damage....of course the difference betwen these and a BBC is that the BBC is built so that we can "see" the frontal area that is left, and the "retained weight",while things like the Berger will have ground itself to almost nothing...evidence of the frontal area has dissapeared.But I am willing to bet that some of those massive exits we see are not due to secondary missiles, but rather to a bullet that has expanded rather widely;and the lengthof some of these heavy, high BC bullets means they have enough bullet material so that even as they collpase into a mushroom and shed weight, here is still enough material and momentum to carry through and make those rounded, nasty exits we see....I think it's the shrapnel that causes the goo efffect around the main wound channel.

Forgive the rambling....what was the question?

:thumbs_up: .....every word!