Home Forums Hunting & Shooting General Big Game Another Partition Failure

Good post Bob

Klik/SU: Thanks....bullets like the Berger and other soft skinned,but long high BC bullets have been counter intuitive to me, but there is no denying the effectivness.

I have never used them but trust John Burns and Johnny B in what they say about them....I may be wrong in figuring them out(I have never used one);but at least in my mind the way I described it makes sense, at least to me..

That BBC is interesting from an historical perspective, and how we got from "there" to "here"...but not many people would use them today because they are not a real LR bullet.But I still use them because I'm not real good at long range...

Bob,

I believe you're right about the way Bergers work--because it can be "seen" after they're shot into the right sort of media.

One of the most interesting ballistic test materials to come along in recent years was the Test Tube. This used a semi-soft wax that left a permanent wound channel, instead of the temporary channel seen in many other kinds of test media.

This wound channel also matched up very well with what happened inside animals--or at least it did when the wax was at 70 degrees, the temperature where it was designed to work.

The typical Berger Hunting VLD wound channel in the Test Tube begins with a narrow entrance about the diameter of the bullet. After a couple of inches or so the wound channel expands suddenly into an huge crater, which over the next foot or so dissipates as the bullet comes apart.

The wound channel from a typical "premium" bullet, on the other hand, begins to open as soon as it hits the wax. There's a relatively small (compared to a VLD) expansion crater for a few inches, then a much narrower channel as the expanded bullet continues through the tube. The size of the expansion crater depends on several things, but if bullet weight/diameter and muzzle velocity are equal, bullets that lose some weight create a larger crater. Those that expand wider and RETAIN that width create a larger post-crater channel.

Thus the Berger VLD expands the most (and does more damage) a a few inches deeper inside the animal than conventional expanding bullets. The expansion crater also eventually dissipates as the bullet comes apart--except at much longer ranges, where velocity drops off, and the bullet retains a more conventional mushroom shape. Even then, however, the shank of the bullet (if recovered) ends up much shorter than in most bullets.

Thanks John. That's a good explanation and makes sense.

You know another thought on the issue of penetration and bullet fragmentation is one of inertia. If a bullet losesa significant portion of it's total weight (as the Hornady on the picture below shows weighing just 79 out of it's original 180 out of a 300 Weatherby at 80 yds), deceleration happens qucikly and penetration is arrested. On the other hand if a bullet retains all or nearly all of it's weight, but mushrooms into a huge frontal diameter, penetration also suffers. Such is the case with Swift Aframes. All four of these were recovered from medium to large African Game eland 175 yds, zebra 125 yds and wildbeest 65 yds). Shoulder shots on the eland and zebra and frontal on the Wildebeest. Caliber was a 3735 H&H,

I have no TSXs to show because they all exit and all left larger than caliber holes, clearly indicating expansion. One particular animal comes to mind, a Zebra I whacked squarely on the shoulder with a TSX out of the 375 that broke both shoulders and exited. From this limited and empirical observation at least to me, the TSXs had the best of all worlds, penetration, expansion and two holes. Thoughts?

jorg good points. I have never used a mono of any kind on anything but paper so I can't play....but I would only say it depends on what you want from your bullet,ie,exits or maybe a somewhat larger wound channel.

Something funny I have seen(at least with the BBC,which is somewhat similar to Aframe)is that they penetrate quite well in animal "internals",so that say on quartering shots I have recovered them about as far back as I have a Nosler Partition;and have had them exit and blow large holes through a brown bear.On broadside shots it seems resistance of shoulder bones has the bullet pretty well spent and the rubbery hide then has that trampoline effect which combines with a broad mushroom to stop them.When velocity is down,expansion is not as great,and they tend to exit.

I assume the sharp,scything action of the Barnes expanded wings (assuming it does not blow the petals ad create a smaller frontal area)offers less resistance,and allows it to cut through the off side hide.

A pal showed me two Barnes TXS 235 gr he dug from an eland and kudu;the eland at 325 yards, perfectly expanded and had broken shoulder bone at 325 yards,dumping the eland right there.The second from a kudu at 80 yards was found against the off side hide as well....maybe a 270 gr TSX would have made it through on both shots?

I don't know but the extra momentum might help

Bob, another bullet (and oh, sorry for the thread hijack to the OP) that is rapidly gaining a sterling reputation in African circles (in addition to the North Forks) is the Cutting Edge Technologies Non-Conventional. Designed similar to a TSX (monometal), the front end is designed to "detonate" rendering it's front part asunder and thus increasing collateral tissue damage and the remainder of the core keeps on pushing. On a recent Buffalo hunt a friend of mine (he has a great video over on AR) shot a buffalo head on with one of those out of a 577-not known for penetration, and the core was recovered near the pooper. That's a LOT of penetration. jorge

I have recovered a few TSXs: 62gr .224s, 120gr .264s, 150gr .284s ... It always surprises me that some people have had opposite experience, never recovering one... I ask myself if they have shot them enough.

Respectfully.

Plastic tipped bullets -

At high speed the plastic becomes hydrolic and starts the expansion as soon as it hits.

COOL.

It would be interesting to put no-compressible / hydrolic like oil in the front of a berger (provided there is a hollow shaft) and watch them blow up.

jorg yes I read the whole section on the Cutting Edge bullets on AR.....those things seem to penetrate like crazy!

My thoughts are that I rather enjoy my recovered bullet collection...so I actually like it when the bullet is mushroomed and against the hide on the far side. Over penetration may produce blood trails, but rather few recovered bullets to look at.

Jorge,

The larger caliber TSX's do perform well on larger game. This is partly because they penetrate deeply, but also because they're larger caliber in the first place, and the hollow-point is also much larger than in smaller calibers, especially below 30. The big hollow-point provides much more reliable expansion, and the wider bullet more damage.

They also work very well when started fast in medium-caliber magnums, say from 7mm to .33. But I don't find they kill better than various lead-core premiums, and often not as well. They do exit more often, but as Bob hinted at, that might be due the tendency of the petals to cut through hide--which the rounded mushroom of a lead-core bullet often doesn't.

I certainly haven't found any Nosler Partitions stopped in the middle of animals, rather than under the hide on the off-side. As a matter of fact, in looking at my hunting notes on hundreds of animals, a higher percentage of Partitions have exited than the petal-type bullets.

This might be due to using heavier Partitions than the petal-type bullets, though, or shooting a lot of deer-sized game with Partition. I haven't broken down that aspect as much as I could yet--but will note that the last Cape buffalo I shot had a good-sized exit hole from the 400-grain .416 Partition. The 400 Partition is one of those designed to retain more weight. The two I've recovered in the past decade averaged 89%.

I haven't noticed all that much advantage in the TSX (or other 100% weight retention, petal-type bullets) in game from elk-size down. Here, once again, I'm talking about how quickly they kill, not how much weight they retain or exit holes.

In calibers from .30 down I've become more fond of lead-cored bullets in the past few years, even plain old soft-points, as they ALWAYS expand, unlike the monos.

One of my editors recently made this comment on the Cutting Edge Non-Conventional: "So they reinvented the Nosler Partition." I wouldn't quite go that far, but have been testing some of the Cutting Edge bullets and hope to come up with some firmer conclusions soon.

By the way, I have shot lengthwise through animals with Nosler Partitions, on several occasions. Sometimes the bullet didn't exit but it ended up at the far end of the animal.

Funny you say that, 'cause that's what I was thinking when I read the brief description above. And I find it rather ironic that Barnes seems to have arrived at somewhat the same end in evolving their mono design to where the TTSX is sometimes inclined to lose part(s) of the front end. Whether people like to admit it or not, there seems to be a standard discovered first, commercially anyway, by John Nosler in the form of the Partition. Lots of variations to improve upon that theme have landed awfully close to the same outcome. From there there's a lot of picking and choosing one can do that amounts to not a whole more than flavor preferences.

Yeah, they sure ruffled my feathers with the discontinuation. My 280 JDJ loved the 160's, PT Gold Moly.

As I noted before in this thread, the Partition Gold was designed by Winchester, not Nosler, when the two company's partnered up on some projects.

That's why the bullet was called the Combined Technology Partition Gold. Nosler could never see why there was a need for the steel cup over the rear core--and guessed the reason Winchester put it there was because they hadn't worked out the geometry of the partition, and so were experiencing bulges of the rear core--just like those that occur with the Swift A-Frame, or today's Winchester XP3. You almost never see those bulges with the Nosler Partition, because they worked out how to prevent them with jacket geometry many years ago. Hence the steel cup was unnecessary, an uneeded expense.

The higher retained weight of the Gold (which wasn't much) could have been done by simply moving the partition forward--as Nosler does in many of its heavier bullets.

I tested a bunch of the Golds, on media and game, and could never see what they brought to the table other than more expense. If somebody out there still really believes in moly, it's easy to moly-coat regular Partitions.

Nice deer muskeg and like the "failed" bullet pics too.

"Re-invented the partition"..... OH boy, what a statement that is.

Sounds more like a sales pitch.

I like lead in my bullets and retrieving partitions against far side hide or opposite end....with 2nds, golds or regular partitions.

My pleasure goes up a little after I'm admiring my downed animal when I cant find a bullet exit, it's almost like a treasure hunt sometimes.....

Me either, save one reason. My 280 JDJ loved them but would not deliver a run of the mill Partition to any appreciable accuracy.

Hasn't someone already tried explining to Mr. Dawginit the original design of the Partition? Perhaps he isn't reading; John Nosler wanted the front half to open easily which is why it's softer than the rearward half of the bullet. Second, he wanted the rear half of the bullet to keep driving. The result is precisely what you see with the OP's pics - i.e. the front half is gone and the rear half acts in some respects like a solid. Incidentally, one of the bonuses of shedding the front half is the fact that the bits of the front half each create their own separate wound channels thereby offering futher damage to an already damaged vital organ system.

It's clear you have an opinion regarding the Partition but it's simply not an informed one. The OP's bullet worked as designed. I love Partitions and I think they work even better at somewhat reduced rather than hyper velocities.

John, I agree with the premise of your post overall and obviously my experience is very small compared to yours, but in the 30 cals (H&H, 7MM and 257 Weatherbys I've had stellar one shot kill successes and as I said previously, clear evidence of expansion. I also like cannelures on my bullets and I don't know why . I'd also like to say that all the animals I shot with thw 180 Partition I had complete penetration as well. I like Noslers but a few of my rifles just don't like them and for the 375 and above, I much prefer the TSXs and even in my 450 Double I've switched to the Non-Con bullets and solids. jorge

Jorge,

My understanding with DRs is that they are regulated to a specific load/bullet combo. When switching to something new is it a hassle to re-regulate?