Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunter's Campfire The 2nd won't save us this time

The 2nd Amendment is less about gun rights than about liberty and personal freedom. The right to keep and bear arms is the right to protect against tyranny. The problem is, we are not apparently able to protect ourselves from the tyranny of violence; whether we are armed or not.
We can install armed guards at every school but this is a stopgap measure (one which probably should be undertaken, mind you)and at some point society has to find a way to limit the violence in schools and elsewhere rather than just declaring war upon it. Engaging it in this manner only propogates more.
I think there exists a time where guns, which had been largely a piece of recreational equipment or a utility tool, became primarily a weapon. Not only that, it became a weapon primarily for defence or offence against people. When one identifies an object as a weapon, it sort of signifies an acceptance of the need for the weapon whether defensive or offensive. This is simply a matter of perception but it exists nonetheless.
I understand that weaponry for use against people has always been part of the scene but the percentage of people who view firearms in this way seems to be on the rise. One has to wonder why. I suspect the news media has a lot to do with it and I can't help but think the proliferation of violent video games has something to do with it but I guess it doesn't really matter. I hope the country can get through this OK but todays ultra-polarized political climate is going to make it difficult indeed. GD

This is an unsolvable problem, within the current paradigm of a decadent society in decline, that also allows relatively easy gun ownership.

People WILL go batsh!t and shoot a bunch of other folks from time to time.

It will only be getting worse, as the pressures on individuals, and on our society as a whole, mount due to all the chit we all know is coming down the pike.

While I agree with Penguin that there's a real and growing mental health diagnosis/treatment/cure issue in America, that won't be changing. And as our society descends into the churning maelstrom that it will become in the next few decades, maintaining the right to own potent firearms is very important for the reasons we all agree on.

So, my conclusion is that a) your analysis is correct, as usual, but b) there's no practical (or even possible) solution here. This incident very likely will lead to restrictions of some sort, and that's a bad thing. A brick-wall "that's just how it is in a free country, dammit!" from gun owners certainly won't help. And yet, in the end that's the gist of my take here. Things like this just happen in a failing society with lots of readily available firearms. Some more restrictions on guns won't help. Some lip service to helping the mentally won't help. Nothing will help. It's just how it is.

The only solution is to have states regulate their areas alone.
For example, Wyoming or Idaho could then ban wolves, and the north east could ban guns and everyone would be free and happy.

I would argue that it is not my left wing view of the world that you take issue with. It is more that you, like many here, don't wish to see the world as it actually is. IOW I would argue that I am telling you about the real world outside this echo chamber and it is a bitter pill.

I'm just telling you that this is a game changer.

Body bags coming out of an elementary school are going to render all of these specious arguments moot. Not even the most disinterested of citizens is going to ignore this one. I honestly don't believe that telling them to buck up and accept elementary school shootings as the price of freedom is going to get us very far.

MOF it will end up giving those more interested in finding a way to disarm the nation than finding a way to stop school rampages some very good sound clips to sway public opinion even further away from us. It makes us all look like lunatics.

Will

Missy, real men recognize that in the real world real terror exists and laws designed to restrict man just doesn't mean squat to those wishing to do real harm.

Grow a set

This was one of my points a couple days ago in another thread. The Schools are god damned vulnerable and need to be secured, period.

When the criminally insane use weapons of any kind to kill kids especially, the masses will seek to find cause. For people who don't know or give a [bleep] about firearms the easiest point of cause to locate are the firearms left on the ground and the empties in the hall way and the holes in those kids.

That is what fuels the witch hunt and that is why change will most likely happen and soon. Unfortunately, It's fear alone that will control this situation.

According to Rush today, the worst mass murder at a school happened in 1927 and the murderer used dynamite. miles

Problem being if you lay down and roll over ,give up the 2nd, al the remaining rights will fall.

A lot of talk about identifying potentially mentally ill people and locking them up or at least preventing them from having firearms by putting them on federal no-gun lists. IIRC, this was suggested or implemented with veterans though VA, and all hell broke loose with the protests, and it was dropped.

Consider Walt Kowalski, Clint Eastwood's character in Gran Torino, somebody most here would identify with. War veteran who uses guns to defend himself and others living in a gang infested neighborhood.

Consider that Walt is a poster child for the kind of person the left would fear having guns. White, male, veteran, patriot, grumpy even angry, hard time dealing with change, antisocial, probably racist, likely depressed over the recent death of his wife. If he had been to VA, there's a fair chance he would have been diagnosed with PTSD, or some similar non-psychotic mental condition.

Question for those who believe any and all mentally ill persons shouldn't have guns. Would you leave Walt unarmed and helpless to defend himself and neighbors?

Walt may be a fictional character, but we had a family friend, a respected police sergeant, who fought in several major battles in WW II and had difficulties in the years thereafter, likely PTSD. Loved to hunt. In many respects he was like Walt Kowalski. Would anybody deny him his badge and guns?

Just saying it isn't simple.

Paul

Incidents like this have been happening for years. The only thing that changes is the intensity and number of people murdered. They will continue to grow until we realize the root of the problem is that we have thousands of people, young and old, that have been diagnosed as having profound phychotic issues and symptoms that indicate they have a strong propensativity to inflict great harm to others.We hide these findings to protect their well being at the expense of the lives and safety of our strongest resource, the young children of America.

We do have some hand wringers here.

I believe the intensity of murders (murders per 100,000 people or equivalent) has been going down for centuries. Even the total number murdered probably has

What kind of hoops does one have to jump through to purchase dynamite these days?

I'm afraid that argument would be used against us. The left will say that since dynamite is very difficult to obtain and we haven't had an epidemic of dynamiting of schools in almost 100 years that regulation and restrictions work.

An average of 5 children die a day in the country from neglect/abuse, we'll be past the 20 that died in school on Friday come tomorrow.

5 times 365 is a bunch, what is being done about that?

One of the most level-headed and pragmatic statements I've yet seen on this subject.

you know the answer Scott. Nothing.

There is no political capital to be made tilting at that windmill.

There you go Ace. I don't even need to formulate a reply just point at who you're partnered up with.

And I'd say 19 children under the age of six died because of another nut job and a van full of fertilizer and 3,000 people died in one day using box cutters.

Not sure how you stop folks set on killing others and themselves, but I'm pretty sure making more sheep don't help. Seems Yellowstone has proving that fact, the wolves will continue to expand.