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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 54,284 |
Guns in the classroom ain' not gonna happen. Crazy talk.
Neither you nor I know, but unlike some of you, I remember what went down during the original AWB and after Columbine, etc. It took a few days and even weeks for our side to start fighting back, but we did. The AWB barely squeaked by. It did sunset. There are a lot of positives here that nobody seems to be. I am generally a negative and pessimistic individual and with fairly good reason. I am not suited to motivational type stuff. But here I am pointing out that in many respects, we are much better off today than we were in my own youth.
My take on the teachers being armed is that it's coming whether some like it or not. Gun Control has had its day and there is ample objective evidence that it doesn't work. The only reason there is talk of it is due to venal old men at the top of the gun control heap continuing to foist it upon people who don't want it due to their own global and profit driven agenda. Under them are their hirelings and under them are a mass of weak-minded, uneducated idiots who follow along due to peer pressure and the influence of the bought and paid for media. There are more and more folks who see through the lies and who look for real solutions and not just the feel good stupidity that hasn't worked in the past. The Treasury is out of money and the politicians see an excellent opportunity to raise taxes under the guise of public safety and for the children! You can't get blood out of a turnip though and people are sick and tired of funding lame social experiments with their hard earned money while lame politicians sit back and act like they earned it with the sweat of their own brows. Allowing teachers to simply exert their own 2nd Amendment rights is the most cost effective, simple and efficient way to tackle this problem and it is coming. The anti's have thrown their screaming fit but sooner or later the hysteria will die down and objective, realistic men will step in and quietly go about doing what needs to be done to actually protect the schools and the people within them, rather than running around acting like a bunch of retarded chickens lacking heads.
I'm not sure if I agree that this is the game-changer that Will is projecting it as. The timing of it, with the holidays, is an interesting angle. There'll be lots of debate about this in kitchens and dens in the next couple weeks. The politicians will be watching closely, but I can't see enough of a groundswell forming over this to (putting it in practical terms) convince the Republican House to pass any significant legislation. There's no elections near.... much of the passion of this will dissipate over the holidays... there's no election near, and most importantly, there's no election near. So I predict smoke but no fire.While I am pretty much in agreement with you here we have to be ever vigilant. It also gives me pause that your track record on both common sense and political predictions is, for lack of some better terminology, wanting.
But, where I do agree with Will is that if we as gun owners were smart, we'd be actively looking for ways to hang onto our fundamental right, while reducing gun violence. One obvious one is finding palatable ways to get our guns stored more securely. I seriously doubt that the Newton shooter cut into his mom's gun safe with a torch....... just sayin'.....I don't disagree with this. Less violence in general is a good thing for any thinking person. Will's problem is he is looking at trading freedom for less violence and I am not for that. You will disagree, but the whole George Zimmerman thing is about you as a regular joe who wants to provide for his families safety and security, not being able to do so and having to look to the government for assistance. Lots of less publicized stuff goes down all the time in this vein. Why should a basically good person who defends himself or his family have to fear the aftermath? They shouldn't, but the government is a profitable enterprise with many totally dependent upon it both in an active and passive sense. When you do their job you ain't just pushing the shopping cart back in the store and depriving the cartboy of his job, you're coming up against one of the most powerful entities in the history of the world and they don't like it when you assert yourself or do for yourself. You're [bleep] with their shopping cart now.
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Campfire Sage
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Campfire Sage
Joined: Jun 2002
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Guns in the classroom ain' not gonna happen. Crazy talk.
Neither you nor I know, but unlike some of you, I remember what went down during the original AWB and after Columbine, etc. It took a few days and even weeks for our side to start fighting back, but we did. The AWB barely squeaked by. It did sunset. There are a lot of positives here that nobody seems to be. I am generally a negative and pessimistic individual and with fairly good reason. I am not suited to motivational type stuff. But here I am pointing out that in many respects, we are much better off today than we were in my own youth.
My take on the teachers being armed is that it's coming whether some like it or not. Gun Control has had its day and there is ample objective evidence that it doesn't work. The only reason there is talk of it is due to venal old men at the top of the gun control heap continuing to foist it upon people who don't want it due to their own global and profit driven agenda. Under them are their hirelings and under them are a mass of weak-minded, uneducated idiots who follow along due to peer pressure and the influence of the bought and paid for media. There are more and more folks who see through the lies and who look for real solutions and not just the feel good stupidity that hasn't worked in the past. The Treasury is out of money and the politicians see an excellent opportunity to raise taxes under the guise of public safety and for the children! You can't get blood out of a turnip though and people are sick and tired of funding lame social experiments with their hard earned money while lame politicians sit back and act like they earned it with the sweat of their own brows. Allowing teachers to simply exert their own 2nd Amendment rights is the most cost effective, simple and efficient way to tackle this problem and it is coming. The anti's have thrown their screaming fit but sooner or later the hysteria will die down and objective, realistic men will step in and quietly go about doing what needs to be done to actually protect the schools and the people within them, rather than running around acting like a bunch of retarded chickens lacking heads.
I'm not sure if I agree that this is the game-changer that Will is projecting it as. The timing of it, with the holidays, is an interesting angle. There'll be lots of debate about this in kitchens and dens in the next couple weeks. The politicians will be watching closely, but I can't see enough of a groundswell forming over this to (putting it in practical terms) convince the Republican House to pass any significant legislation. There's no elections near.... much of the passion of this will dissipate over the holidays... there's no election near, and most importantly, there's no election near. So I predict smoke but no fire.While I am pretty much in agreement with you here we have to be ever vigilant. It also gives me pause that your track record on both common sense and political predictions is, for lack of some better terminology, wanting.
But, where I do agree with Will is that if we as gun owners were smart, we'd be actively looking for ways to hang onto our fundamental right, while reducing gun violence. One obvious one is finding palatable ways to get our guns stored more securely. I seriously doubt that the Newton shooter cut into his mom's gun safe with a torch....... just sayin'.....I don't disagree with this. Less violence in general is a good thing for any thinking person. Will's problem is he is looking at trading freedom for less violence and I am not for that. You will disagree, but the whole George Zimmerman thing is about you as a regular joe who wants to provide for his families safety and security, not being able to do so and having to look to the government for assistance. Lots of less publicized stuff goes down all the time in this vein. Why should a basically good person who defends himself or his family have to fear the aftermath? They shouldn't, but the government is a profitable enterprise with many totally dependent upon it both in an active and passive sense. When you do their job you ain't just pushing the shopping cart back in the store and depriving the cartboy of his job, you're coming up against one of the most powerful entities in the history of the world and they don't like it when you assert yourself or do for yourself. You're [bleep] with their shopping cart now.
Wow! JeffO made some excellent points in the quote above. At least the red letter part. 
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Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 5,687
Campfire Tracker
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OP
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 5,687 |
Guns in the classroom ain' not gonna happen. Crazy talk.
I'm not sure if I agree that this is the game-changer that Will is projecting it as. The timing of it, with the holidays, is an interesting angle. There'll be lots of debate about this in kitchens and dens in the next couple weeks. The politicians will be watching closely, but I can't see enough of a groundswell forming over this to (putting it in practical terms) convince the Republican House to pass any significant legislation. There's no elections near.... much of the passion of this will dissipate over the holidays... there's no election near, and most importantly, there's no election near. So I predict smoke but no fire.
But, where I do agree with Will is that if we as gun owners were smart, we'd be actively looking for ways to hang onto our fundamental right, while reducing gun violence. One obvious one is finding palatable ways to get our guns stored more securely. I seriously doubt that the Newton shooter cut into his mom's gun safe with a torch....... just sayin'.....
In the end, as I have reiterated before, we need to start the discussion in a direction of things that actually have a chance to working. Not misdirection. Not trying to deflect. Honest debate about what actually stands a chance of working. Limits on mag size and pistol grips and all this other stuff won't touch the problem. Won't even slow it down. Proper storage for semi-autos (just like some other countries that we seem to point to as bastions of gun laws) is something I don't know that I could argue with. Wouldn't even argue against it in general. Finding ways to eliminate the killings where someone who has been eliminated from legally purchase but the info has not been passed on/processed? Needs to never happen. But in the end, again and again, we are presented with a rampage where the gunman was out of his mind. And in many of these cases the guy had already been identified as a risk but for whatever reason he never ends up institutionalized and getting the care he needs. In other cases people around them were scared of them but just never felt they had reason to bring them to the attention of authorities. This is where we need to start the discussion. Some members have taken extreme offense at the thought of taking a more aggressive stance toward mental illness. I don't care. When I made this post I knew ahead of time I was going to lose some friends, I was going to alienate some who I just got along with, and would endure the ire of some I've never spoken with. Again, this is the truth as I see it. It needed to be said and said out loud. And then defended. It ain't about trading rights away and it ain't about waving the white flag. It is about taking a cold hard look at who is committing these rampages and figuring out how to keep them from getting their hands on weapons. And if that upsets you greatly? Too bad. Will
Smellin' a lot of 'if' coming off this plan.
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Campfire Outfitter
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I see the surf's still up....
All American
All the time
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Posts: 10,877 Likes: 1
Campfire Outfitter
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Well said Will. My wife ( in the mental health field for 30 plus years ) and I have argued over this for a long time. Not only about forcing them to take their meds, but their 'right' to have sex and drop babies on society. I always advocated keeping them fat, happy, in front of the TV, and in a secure location. Made for some pretty lively arguments over the years.
Then came the latest social experiment where the state institutions were shut down and these folks were mainstreamed back to the local community, where they were to receive compassionate care. Local communities were already stretched and programs being cut. Long story short, one of the previously institutionalized individuals was placed in a assisted living home where he promptly killed another resident and wounded others. Stories like this abound but you do not hear them, and many of the homeless are former residents of institutions that have no where to go.
Sad all the way round, but these individuals need to be in a secure environment and given the care they need, against their wishes if need be.
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Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 24,239
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 24,239 |
Will, the questions really come down to this one:
Can the government legislate away the actions of an individual who has no fear of punishment?
That has been answered countless times thruout history.
Never holler whoa or look back in a tight place
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It ain't about trading rights away and it ain't about waving the white flag. It is about taking a cold hard look at who is committing these rampages and figuring out how to keep them from getting their hands on weapons. It is mostly young males in their early 20's. I do know there is some late brain development/growth that occurs in the early 20's, it is also the same time frame where schizophrenia shows up in young adults. I could probably live with some age restrictions on purchasing handguns, assault rifles, and hi-capacity magazines until after this late brain development/growth period has passed. This would be much more preferable to an outright ban on those items. The other issue to address is storage and access.
"Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence". John Adams
"A dishonest man can always be trusted to be dishonest". Captain Jack Sparrow
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Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 1,763 |
I just sent you a pm, Sport. But for public consumption, you can go f@uck yourself. Aww, you're so cute. You can swear! How...mature of you! Fudds like you have no place being firearms owners. You don't understand the second amendment or your God-given freedom.
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Joined: Sep 2011
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Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
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It ain't about trading rights away and it ain't about waving the white flag. It is about taking a cold hard look at who is committing these rampages and figuring out how to keep them from getting their hands on weapons. It is mostly young males in their early 20's. I do know there is some late brain development/growth that occurs in the early 20's, it is also the same time frame where schizophrenia shows up in young adults. I could probably live with some age restrictions on purchasing handguns, assault rifles, and hi-capacity magazines until after this late brain development/growth period has passed. This would be much more preferable to an outright ban on those items. The other issue to address is storage and access. Only if we change the voting age to reflect such, as well as that age to serve in the military, become a police officer, drive a car, etc. Do you people not realize these events are few and far between. Violent crime is overall down in this country. Yet you want to line up to "live with" your rights being taken away.
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Like or not the other side IS going to do something in an attempt to prevent a repeat of what happened at Sandy Hook from ever happening again.
I am open to suggestions that don't involve any outright bans which is what the other side is currently pushing for. What suggestion do you have for preventing another Sandy Hook tragedy from ever happening again?
Our side really needs to put forth some reasonable suggestions, a failure to do so is surest way to see the bans the other side wants enacted.
"Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence". John Adams
"A dishonest man can always be trusted to be dishonest". Captain Jack Sparrow
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Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 24,239
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 24,239 |
Appeasement has never led to anything except defeat when dealing with idealouges.
Never holler whoa or look back in a tight place
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 6,168
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I am open to suggestions that don't involve any outright bans which is what the other side is currently pushing for. What suggestion do you have for preventing another Sandy Hook tragedy from ever happening again?
Tax credit for 90% of the cost of a gunsafe up to a value of $1500. Might have stopped Sandy hook, even if it doesn't it would likely save dozens of kids lives every year.
The collection of taxes which are not absolutely required, which do not beyond reasonable doubt contribute to public welfare, is only a species of legalized larceny. Under this Republic the rewards of industry belong to those who earn them. Coolidge
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I am open to suggestions that don't involve any outright bans which is what the other side is currently pushing for. What suggestion do you have for preventing another Sandy Hook tragedy from ever happening again?
Our side really needs to put forth some reasonable suggestions, a failure to do so is surest way to see the bans the other side wants enacted.
see, there's the rub. that's a straw man argument. you are assuming by saying that there really is something that could be done to prevent another Sandy Hook.sadly, history tells us that is not something that can be done. massacres and atrocities have been committed for thousands of years. and all the gun legislation in the world won't stop that.
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Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
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Posts: 1,763 |
Security in schools, CCW training for teachers, bulletproof glass for schools, locks for doors.
Oh, and quit supporting media that keeps using this crap for ratings.
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OP
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crowrifle: That is a great, albeit sad, story. There are some people who have problems that make them eccentric but harmless. There are others who are just a hoot and a holler from going completely crazy and killing someone. And many of them could not give you a reason why afterward to save their souls. There are dangerous people out there and we need to understand that they aren't going to go away.
What is your wife's opinion on institutionalization of the dangerous if you don't mind me asking. Does she have any insight into what the procedures are for putting someone away against their wishes? How does that work. I know it is hard but I have never heard what the actual procedure is for many states.
NeBassman: My coworkers and I (who also own and hunt and target practice etc) had a discussion about this yesterday. Many of these diseases don't show up early. You cannot screen once in the 3rd grade and wash your hands can you?
Storage and access is going to need to be addressed. I don't think it is too much to ask that we keep our weapons as safe as reasonably possible. And most certainly when you have someone unstable around.
curdog4570: No, those who have no fear can't be coerced into reasonable action. But we can identify and institutionalize people who have shown themselves to be dangerous and ready to go off much better. Just look at the list of these mass shootings over the past handful of years. Many of these guys were identified. But then nothing further was done. There were different reasons why it turned out that way but in the end we had them identified and then did nothing.
Will
Smellin' a lot of 'if' coming off this plan.
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see, there's the rub. that's a straw man argument. you are assuming by saying that there really is something that could be done to prevent another Sandy Hook. I agree with you, I am not sure there is anything that could have been done to prevent this tragedy but at least I am open to discussing it. What I am saying is that if our side simply refuses to engage in a conversation about preventing these types of events, we going to be left on the sidelines while the other side legislates their own ideas into law.
"Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence". John Adams
"A dishonest man can always be trusted to be dishonest". Captain Jack Sparrow
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Posts: 10,877 Likes: 1
Campfire Outfitter
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Joined: May 2004
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Since the death of her former client, she has taken a more proactive stance on involuntary commitment. But, it almost takes an act of congress to commit someone against their will, mainly due to very liberal statutes protecting the individual's rights. They can be a walking timebomb that any layperson could diagnose as batshit crazy, but unless they exhibit violent behavior or commit a crime they cannot be touched. And then usually only for 48 hours of observation.
The other problem is that there are no longer enough facilities to handle those that need to be committed.
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OP
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Well you have a kid that is a hop, skip, and a jump away from getting institutionalized. And he finds out and grabs mom's weapons and kills her and then goes to the local school and kills people until the police show up.
There are a couple points that we should look at. Is there some way that kids can be brought into custody and examined that can keep a lid on their ability to make a break for it?
Second, I find it hard to believe that this kid broke into a quality safe to gain access to these weapons. Either she didn't have them secured, she did have them secured but he had been given the means to enter the safe, or she was coerced into doing so after he snapped. We may never know which is was but can we agree that having these weapons available to a volatile young man who was unhinged enough to be up for institutionalization is a pretty severe case of ineptitude?
Will
Smellin' a lot of 'if' coming off this plan.
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OP
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I'm not saying we need to go back to "One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest" territory but I think we are going to have to look at these issues crowrifle. I have to wonder how many of these folks commit murder in the one's and two's that never make the national news.
Will
Smellin' a lot of 'if' coming off this plan.
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Campfire Outfitter
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Well, what's telling on a gun forum is there are actually members that believe you're intelligent.
All American
All the time
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