Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunter's Campfire The 2nd won't save us this time

The whole answer to your first paragraph lies in the second.



One of the most famous treatment facilities in the United States. Gone and nearly forgotten.

Advocating for involuntary commitment to a mental institution is a slippery slope, and it is a slope we are already on in most States.

In FACT, what we do is lock people away for what we THINK they are THINKING.

Other than conspiracy statutes, our system is based on punishing ACTIONS, not thoughts.

You got it.

Will, I understand you're a smart guy. Probably smarter than me. But you are still looking at this emotionally (which is entirely understandable).

but there is NOTHING that can be done successfully to either one of your points.

ALL you can do is love your kids, try to teach them right from wrong, and take care of you, and those around you, to the best of your abilities.

sure, we can harden some school facilities, hire some resource officers, require some more training, storage requirments, limit mag capacities and ammo, even restrict what kind of guns you can buy. if that makes people feel better, fine.

but it will not change ANYTHING.

IMO what is happening here is that doing what Penguin alludes to is allowing the other side to control the conversation about this whole thing. In the first place, there needs to be some admission that there is such a thing as evil. Most of the treatments and the practitioners thereof that Penguin and others think should be in control of who does and doesn't get to have a gun not to mention the freedom of those same folks, don't even believe evil exists. They may talk about "confronting one's demons" or "vanquishing evil" and other such things, but that's just speaking in terms they think the hicks understand. The sad fact is that most hardcore mental illness is treatable with three outcomes...the patient gets better, the patients worsens despite efforts or the patient stays the same.

During the Reagan era, scores of these folks were released. Read Red Dragon, for a great fictional account that delves into some of this. It and its sequal, The Silence of the Lambs, have been made into movies. Both entertaining and educational as to mental illness and evil.

We don't have money to rebuild the whole system of crazy houses that once existed. We are on a fiscal cliff. We have to face facts and live within our means or we are no better than the liberals who spend money wholesale on welfare programs. The fact is that medication works as good as anything else and the whole thing isn't as bad as it seems. The body count rises when people don't have the means to defend themselves and the crazies know it.

Start from the point that evil exists and we have to combat it. Guns do NOT belong on the table other than ways to prevent them from falling into the wrong hands. The conversation should not be dictated by anti-gunners who are either emotionally unable (unstable) to make decisions based on facts, such as the fact that the last AWB was an abject failure in stopping significant amounts of crime and the fact that arming people has significantly reduced it. Thus, the securement of guns is almost a tertiary issue to the subject where it is being touted as a primary.

You are on the right track Curdog. And I expect the Grandma you're married to can shoot.

Yes it will change EVERYTHING. Our rights will continue to erode and we will have lost the ability to get them back. We'll inch closer and closer to 1984.

If you think P is smarter than you, then you're not as smart as I think.

Why do y'all keep saying P is smart?

LMAO! There's not a bigger girl on the 'fire.

He's a wannabe intellectual; product of a failing school system.

No offense toward Will, E.E., but the "elites" among us are willing to explore all options,put everything on the table,.........................

Except for this.

This wasn't considered worthy of a response.

Sorry curdog but there isn't much I can say about it. Although I have always believed in God and pray for guidance and thanks occasionally, I do not believe in satan, the devil, Luicifer, or whathaveyou.

No common ground for a discussion. I don't dismiss your theory out of hand it just isn't something I wanted to veer off into. I'm more concerned with what we can do that what a demon I don't believe in is responsible for.

No offense meant.

Will

well, it's easier for ones argument to be given weight if it isn't delivered on the point of a spear.

i have a hard time living by that sometimes tho!

How can you believe in God but not Satan? Goes hand in hand....

Apparently, very selective in your theological studies.

We just will disagree amiably, then.You have a good day.

The mentally ill have been granted rights so that there isn't abuse and you can't just call the Psych Cops and have somebody committed. Held for observation for a limited period of time, yes, but having them institutionalized requires court intervention.

The Aurora and Connecticut shootings are both situations where a previously identified mentally unstable person committed mass murder and therein lies the problem. Although, in each case both young men were deeply withdrawn and more than likely didn't voice their intentions.

The current rumor is that Lanza snapped but I believe he planned it and kept his plans secret. There's enough evidence so far to suggest that. He had a vest of some type with enough magazines to contain hundreds of rounds and it's highly unlikely that mom would have had purchased those things.

Could either shooting have been prevented? Maybe in Holme's case but in Lanza's case ... I don't think so.

I believe there are flaws in our current mental health system but how you go about making changes or what changes are possible to prevent mass murder is beyond me. This is something that health care professionals need to address. Not the govt, not the left, not the NRA but experts that can make sound recommendations regarding new protocols or changes to our current laws.

When the rights of the few exceed the risk of harm to the public at large I believe there is room for change however there's no way to prevent these types of killings. Reduce the number ... possibly ... stop it entirely ... no.

ROFLOL! Will didn't even need to codify his "beliefs" since they almost always come in a package. TF

Thank you for stating the obvious. I mean no offense by saying that either. It should have been obvious from the get-go. Thank you for laying it out in plain terms.

Penguin---I hesitate to post this because I know it will bring down a ration on me, but what the hell that won't be anything new.

You and I have been on opposite sides of some issues but not on this. You have well and eloquently framed the problem and I agree with most of what you say.

This is not the time for "Cold, dead hands" rhetoric, no, it is a time to hunker down and take a few punches. It is a time to beat an orderly retreat so that we only lose this battle and not the war. We need a reasoned response from reasonable gun owners, not shouts from our Lunatic Fringe.

It is a certainty that there will be new gun restrictions. Our strategy must be to make sure those restrictions are as innocuous as possible.

I think it is a dead cinch that high capacity mags will be the first casualty. If we could get away with only that I would consider it a major victory. However it will probably go further. How much further depends on the eloquence and political clout of the NRA and other responsible gun owner groups.

It will not go well if our Lunatic Fringe is given voice in the MSN as it certainly will be.

I like it.

At first glance I like that idea but what if ...

It was tied to a law that required all firearms to be stored in a safe?

No pistols in the nightstand, no shotguns under the bed and if you used one in defense of your life or property that wasn't stored in a safe you'd be in violation of the "law".

Don't take offense. I'm just playing devil's advocate.