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That would be unconstitutional. wink


"Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence". John Adams

"A dishonest man can always be trusted to be dishonest". Captain Jack Sparrow
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The devil has plenty of REAL advocates on here, Mr. Fish.

You beat 'em to the punch on this one.

Bad, Bad, idea to involve ANYTHING taking place in the home in any new legislation.

If they gotta do some "feel good" crap- and they probably will- let it be in the marketplace.


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New York Times article: Supreme Court Gun Ruling Doesn�t Block Proposed Controls

see: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/19/us/gun-plans-dont-conflict-with-justices-08-ruling.html

Article:
Supreme Court Gun Ruling Doesn�t Block Proposed Controls
By ADAM LIPTAK

WASHINGTON � Despite the sweeping language of a 2008 Supreme Court decision that struck down parts of the District of Columbia�s strict gun-control law, the decision appears perfectly consistent with many of the policy options being discussed after the shootings in Newtown, Conn.

Legal experts say the decision in the case, District of Columbia v. Heller, has been of mainly symbolic importance so far. There have been more than 500 challenges to gun laws and gun prosecutions since Heller was decided, and vanishingly few of them have succeeded.

The courts have upheld federal laws banning gun ownership by people convicted of felonies and some misdemeanors, by illegal immigrants and by drug addicts. They have upheld laws making it illegal to carry guns near schools or in post offices. They have upheld laws concerning unregistered weapons. And they have upheld laws banning machine guns and sawed-off shotguns.

Nor does Heller impose any major hurdles to many of the most common legislative proposals in the wake of the Newtown shootings, said Adam Winkler, a law professor at the University of California, Los Angeles, and the author of �Gunfight: The Battle Over the Right to Bear Arms in America.� Among the responses that Heller allows, he said, are better background checks, enhanced mental health reporting and a ban on high-capacity ammunition clips.

There is one major possible exception to the trend, and it is quite fresh. Last week, a divided three-judge panel of the United States Court of Appeals for the Seventh Circuit, in Chicago, struck down an Illinois law that banned carrying loaded guns in public. Judge Richard A. Posner, writing for the majority, said the ruling was required by the Heller decision.

The Heller case, decided by a 5-to-4 vote, struck down a ban on handguns kept in the home for self-defense, saying it violated the Second Amendment.

After the shootings on Friday in Newtown, which killed 20 children and 7 adults before the gunman took his own life, policy makers � mostly Democrats � have called for tougher gun laws. Of the 12 deadliest mass shootings in American history, six have occurred since 2007.

The proposed measures include bans on some kinds of weapons and ammunition magazines, more sharing of information among government agencies, and an expansion of the settings in which background checks are required. In California, Democratic lawmakers are seeking to regulate ammunition sales more tightly.

The main obstacle to the passage of such measures is likely to be politics, not constitutional law, scholars say.

�We are aware of the problem of handgun violence in this country,� Justice Antonin Scalia wrote for the majority in the Heller decision. �But,� he added, �the enshrinement of constitutional rights necessarily takes certain policy choices off the table.�

Still, the decision also contained a long list of laws and regulations that would, the court said, be unaffected. Among them were �laws forbidding the carrying of firearms in sensitive places such as schools.�

�Nothing in our opinion should be taken to cast doubt on longstanding prohibitions on the possession of firearms by felons and the mentally ill,� Justice Scalia wrote. Government buildings in general could still ban guns. And the court said it had no quarrel with �laws imposing conditions and qualifications on the commercial sale of arms.�

Justice Scalia added that laws banning �dangerous and unusual weapons� are �another important limitation on the right to keep and carry arms.� He gave an example: �M-16 rifles and the like.�

When the case was argued in 2008, Justice Scalia suggested that other kinds of weapons and ammunition could be regulated. �I don�t know that a lot of people have machine guns or armor-piercing bullets,� he said. �I think that�s quite unusual.�

Jonathan E. Lowy, director of the Brady Center to Prevent Gun Violence�s Legal Action Project, said the Heller decision thus did very little to restrict possible Congressional responses to the Newtown shootings.

The Supreme Court has not yet ruled on an issue left open in Heller: whether the Second Amendment forbids blanket bans on having guns for self-defense outside the home. Last week, the Seventh Circuit said it did.

The two central words in the phrase �to keep and bear� have different meanings, Judge Posner wrote, and the second one �is unlikely to refer to the home.�

�A Chicagoan,� he wrote, �is a good deal more likely to be attacked on a sidewalk in a rough neighborhood than in his apartment on the 35th floor of the Park Tower.�

Judge Posner reviewed the empirical literature about the practical consequences for crime and safety of bans on carrying guns in public, and he found it inconclusive. Justice Stephen G. Breyer came to a similar conclusion about gun-control laws generally in his dissent in Heller.

�Anyway,� Judge Posner wrote, �the Supreme Court made clear in Heller that it wasn�t going to make the right to bear arms depend on casualty counts.�

A ban short of a blanket prohibition might be permissible, he added, and the court gave the Illinois Legislature 180 days to enact a new law. One suggestion: it could prohibit guns �merely in particular places, such as public schools.�

The decision is in tension with recent ones from federal appeals courts in New York and Virginia, which is often a sign that an issue is heading to the Supreme Court.

For now, though, there is something like consensus that the court�s existing decisions will not stand in the way of most legislative responses to the recent shootings.

In a speech to the Brady Center in October, former Justice John Paul Stevens, who dissented in Heller and retired in 2010, said the decision was wrong but limited.

�Even as generously construed in Heller,� he said, �the Second Amendment provides no obstacle to regulations prohibiting the ownership or use of the sorts of automatic weapons used in the tragic multiple killings in Virginia, Colorado and Arizona in recent years. The failure of Congress to take any action to minimize the risk of similar tragedies in the future cannot be blamed on the court�s decision in Heller.�

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Originally Posted by fish head
The mentally ill have been granted rights so that there isn't abuse and you can't just call the Psych Cops and have somebody committed. Held for observation for a limited period of time, yes, but having them institutionalized requires court intervention.

The Aurora and Connecticut shootings are both situations where a previously identified mentally unstable person committed mass murder and therein lies the problem. Although, in each case both young men were deeply withdrawn and more than likely didn't voice their intentions.

The current rumor is that Lanza snapped but I believe he planned it and kept his plans secret. There's enough evidence so far to suggest that. He had a vest of some type with enough magazines to contain hundreds of rounds and it's highly unlikely that mom would have had purchased those things.

Could either shooting have been prevented? Maybe in Holme's case but in Lanza's case ... I don't think so.

I believe there are flaws in our current mental health system but how you go about making changes or what changes are possible to prevent mass murder is beyond me. This is something that health care professionals need to address. Not the govt, not the left, not the NRA but experts that can make sound recommendations regarding new protocols or changes to our current laws.

When the rights of the few exceed the risk of harm to the public at large I believe there is room for change however there's no way to prevent these types of killings. Reduce the number ... possibly ... stop it entirely ... no.


BINGO+1. During WWII, if you dared question the then resident socialist in the White House, there would be a knock at your door and off to St. Elizabeth's you would go. That was seventy years ago. Tell me, does anybody think the Fed has gotten less or more intrusive since then... These tragedies will continue to happen and I can guarantee you I won't be one of them-REGARDLESS of the "No CCW" signs..


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This might get me on the schit list too but here goes ...

Teachers or administrators carrying at school is a can of worms.

Here's one scenario. An urban high school in the middle of the worst of it and where a teacher really fears for his/her life in the classroom. Open or concealed carry would be a disaster waiting to happen. It'd only be a matter of time before a gang of thugs would beat down a teacher or administrator and steal the weapon.

Locked in a safe and only to be used in the most dire of emergencies? Well ... you'd never get the majority of the public, the NEA or school boards to allow it.

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No can of worms, in fact quite plausible. Here's the fix for that; CCW permits, their key to success is their stealth, kinda like when we use to say "we can't confirm or deny" the presence of nuclear weapons on board our Aircraft Carriers....


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There is a hell of a big difference between REQUIRING teachers to carry[which nobody has suggested] and ALLOWING teachers to carry.


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Copied from another thread

:Originally Posted By: FOsteology
"Let School Districts decide on concealed carry"

On Monday Governor Rick Perry during a speech in Tarrant County said that local school districts should be able to decide if administrators and teachers should be able to be armed.

That makes a hell of a lot more sense than the way it is now. The current situation allows any deranged person contemplating shooting up a school the knowledge that no one has a gun to confront them and take them out.

I have spoken to several administrators, and they welcome the thought of having defense for themselves and their students available to them. I can hear it now from the libs though, "It will be just like the old West, we'll see an increase in violence in schools", just like their arguments when Texas approved concealed carry. Didn't happen then, wouldn't happen now.

But don't confuse them with facts. They would rather focus on the evil guns...

Curdog replied:


Texas' CCL was written in such a way that it has ALWAYS allowed school employees to carry in the classroom if school administrators OK it.It REQUIRES a CHL for the individual and it ALLOWS individual School Districts to mandate other requirements such as additional training.

That's why the guy up at Harrold ISD could do this.

As usual, the news media got the story wrong. The Governor was just encouraging School Districts to consider using a "tool" they already have to protect students.
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Originally Posted by fish head
This might get me on the schit list too but here goes ...

Teachers or administrators carrying at school is a can of worms.

Here's one scenario. An urban high school in the middle of the worst of it and where a teacher really fears for his/her life in the classroom. Open or concealed carry would be a disaster waiting to happen. It'd only be a matter of time before a gang of thugs would beat down a teacher or administrator and steal the weapon.

Locked in a safe and only to be used in the most dire of emergencies? Well ... you'd never get the majority of the public, the NEA or school boards to allow it.


If a teacher (or administrator) is not responsible enough to be trusted with a firearm, should they choose to carry one, I don't want them around my kids in the first place!

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Originally Posted by curdog4570
There is a hell of a big difference between REQUIRING teachers to carry[which nobody has suggested] and ALLOWING teachers to carry.


I understand. No arguments there.

Originally Posted by jorgeI
No can of worms, in fact quite plausible. Here's the fix for that; CCW permits, their key to success is their stealth, kinda like when we use to say "we can't confirm or deny" the presence of nuclear weapons on board our Aircraft Carriers....


Again, I understand but there are flaws in that reasoning. No offense Jorge, I'm just continuing the discussion.

The scenario. The same schithole urban school ...

Mr Perkins gets a CCW and can hide his weapon under his sport coat.

Where does the blue haired Mrs. Shlotsky keep her weapon hidden yet easily accessible?

In either case how do you keep a weapon hidden for years from the prying eyes of kids when you're in front them each and every day for hours at a time?

It's one thing to walk down the street and never be noticed but it's entirely different with thirty eyes intently focused on you ... all the time. Sooner or later a kid would catch a glimpse and rumors would spread like wildfire.

Could Mrs. Shlotsky stop three or four teenage gang members from taking her weapon in a crowded hallway?


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Couldn't the same arguments be made against the typical do-nut munching, intellectually- challenged Rent a Cop this "urban" school might employ instead of allowing teachers to carry?


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our local schools have employed school resource officers that report to the county bd of education for ages now. they are certified police officers. they wear a uniform, have a badge and cuffs, and of course a Glock. they are issued a car, badged with school police logo.

it works well. one for daytime patroling of the school when it's open. local police oversea football games, etc. when it occurs i their territory.

not a bad plan, really.


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Quote
I could probably live with some age restrictions on purchasing handguns, assault rifles, and hi-capacity magazines until after this late brain development/growth period has passed.



Maybe you could join the military in their place? grin


Son of a liberal: " What did you do in the War On Terror, Daddy?"

Liberal father: " I fought the Americans, along with all the other liberals."

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Here's the thing.

In the context of the Sandy Hook Elementary shooting it's not unreasonable or illogical to believe if a teacher, administrator or custodian had a gun they might have prevented this tragedy or reduced the number of dead. However, I believe there are environments where the benefits outweigh the risk. School shootings are extremely rare but high school thugs that are willing to rob, steal and commit mayhem are not.

Carrying in elementary schools seems like a good idea but what about high schools where there's gangs and almost fully grown adults?

Who should be allowed to carry ... or not?

Who would make these decisions?

Would you establish minimum physical requirements?

If this was implemented under a right to carry law you couldn't deny one person over another.

Giving blue haired Mrs. Shlotsky the right to carry at Martin Luther King HS in Detroit just doesn't seem like a good idea.

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Originally Posted by Spanokopitas

This is not the time for "Cold, dead hands" rhetoric, no, it is a time to hunker down and take a few punches. It is a time to beat an orderly retreat so that we only lose this battle and not the war. We need a reasoned response from reasonable gun owners, not shouts from our Lunatic Fringe.


GFY

Re: Locking up loonies - The sad fact is that unless someone tells us what they are going to do, there is no way to predict who is going to do anything. We can't predict who will steal, we can't predict who will cheat on their spouse, we can't predict who will molest kids and we sure can't predict who will murder.

Locking guns up is a mistake that defeats one of the major purposes of gun ownership - that of a readily available self defense tool.


Islam is a terrorist organization.

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Originally Posted by fish head

Where does the blue haired Mrs. Shlotsky keep her weapon hidden yet easily accessible?

Sooner or later a kid would catch a glimpse and rumors would spread like wildfire.

Could Mrs. Shlotsky stop three or four teenage gang members from taking her weapon in a crowded hallway?

You are getting so caught up in minutiae that you are missing the point. Mrs. Shlotsky could have a .32 on her thigh. But who cares? The kids could catch a glimpse of a gun under a sport coat. But again, who cares? They'd see one on a paid guard too and he could just as easily be disarmed by thugs.

As things are, the Mrs. Shlotskys' are defenseless and are getting raped by those thugs.

ETA: I really would not have a problem if she shot one of those thugs. We should not be sacrificing innocents to save a few thugs.

Last edited by BarryC; 12/19/12.

Islam is a terrorist organization.

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THAT's why the decision is a LOCAL one.Ain't no one size fits all plan gonna work.

But.... I will say that the little grey haired lady has a right to defend herself at her workplace....... especially if its a real bad one like you used as illustration.


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So ... here's a hypothetical question with minutiae galore.

How much would a jury award to the parents of the chirren who where slain when Mrs. Shlotsky was attacked in a crowded hallway, by a gang of thugs, lost control of her weapon and when Mr. Perkins came to the rescue brandishing his pistola, a firefight ensued and the thugs and Mr. Perkins took out a total of fourteen innocent students?

Six dead ... eight critically wounded. frown

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Visited with some friends on Saturday (both of whom are card carrying members of the Democratic Party) and the conversation turned to the recent tragedy and gun control. Much to my surprise, they both defended the second amendment and said that gun restriction was not the answer. Now they did both like the idea of more rigorous screening of purchasers, tighter control on gun sales, and mandatory gun safes, but, and this is the important part, they both were opposed to restrictions on the right to own guns beyond this.

Not sure we are lost.

Last edited by 40O; 12/19/12.

"What I was saying is if my kin folk 400 years ago had guns, we wouldn�t be having this conversation. I�m in favor of guns and encourage everyone I know to have them because the last time we didn�t have them we were abused.�
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Originally Posted by fish head
So ... here's a hypothetical question with minutiae galore.

How much would a jury award to the parents of the chirren who where slain when Mrs. Shlotsky was attacked in a crowded hallway, by a gang of thugs, lost control of her weapon and when Mr. Perkins came to the rescue brandishing his pistola, a firefight ensued and the thugs and Mr. Perkins took out a total of fourteen innocent students?

Six dead ... eight critically wounded. frown


I want you to think about two things:

First, seriously, how likely is that to happen?

Second, put a comma after the name "Mr. Perkins" and add the words "school resource officer" and consider whether things would be any different.

Let's not get ridiculous.


Islam is a terrorist organization.

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