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White teacher shoots black student in inner city school= chit storm. I don't care what the situation was at the time of the shooting. If its anyone other than a Leo with a badge doing the shooting it's gona go bad.
Deserve's got nuthin to do with it- Willam H Munny
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I shall retreat from suggesting the obscure.  However, I believe there are environments and potentially certain situations where the benefits could outweigh the risk. That's the one and only point that I'll stick to and it is worthy of consideration in a civil discussion. Here in Fort Collins, a 1/2 mile down the street from my house, in the middle of a very nice suburbia neighborhood, there's an armed police officer at the HS every day. However, I don't believe they have POs at the elementary schools ... yet.
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Campfire Tracker
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In Oregon a CCW holder can carry in a public school. Some school districts have written policies that teachers can not carry. The teacher would be fired if found with a firearm on campus but it is not a criminal offense.
Many teachers in Oregon do carry. It's a "don't ask, don't tell" situation.
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Campfire Ranger
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White teacher shoots black student in inner city school= chit storm. I don't care what the situation was at the time of the shooting. If its anyone other than a Leo with a badge doing the shooting it's gona go bad. You mean like when Mr. Perkins, the school safety officer, comes to the aid of Mrs. Shlotsky's niece, Valerie who's being raped by Treyvon "Bubba" Martin, the HS football star? Sorry, I couldn't resist. That is a very valid point about introducing weapons into schools. Sooner or later something similar would happen and the public outcry would be overwhelming. Even if a LEO did the shooting it wouldn't go over well.
Last edited by fish head; 12/19/12.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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I am open to suggestions that don't involve any outright bans which is what the other side is currently pushing for. What suggestion do you have for preventing another Sandy Hook tragedy from ever happening again?
Tax credit for 90% of the cost of a gunsafe up to a value of $1500. Might have stopped Sandy hook, even if it doesn't it would likely save dozens of kids lives every year. Yep. Do I get it retroactively for my two safes? THIS is the kind of thing we should be considering conceding as a group. Because make no mistake- it's an infringement on our RIGHT. But that doesn't mean it's not a smart tactical move for us gun owners to make. I bet the NRA says something similar Friday...
The CENTER will hold.
Reality, Patriotism,Trump: you can only pick two
FÜCK PUTIN!
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Son of a liberal: " What did you do in the War On Terror, Daddy?"
Liberal father: " I fought the Americans, along with all the other liberals."
MOLON LABE
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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The CENTER will hold.
Reality, Patriotism,Trump: you can only pick two
FÜCK PUTIN!
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Campfire Outfitter
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Anyone who believes that the present temper of the public would allow teachers to be armed is delusional. It just ain't going to happen.
Floating ideas like that is what gives our side a reputation of lunacy.
Does anyone here think that high capacity magazines will not soon made illegal? When they are will that be such a big deal? Why?
www.paracay.comIt's better to live rich than die rich. Live simply so that I may simply live large.
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Campfire Tracker
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I am open to suggestions that don't involve any outright bans which is what the other side is currently pushing for. What suggestion do you have for preventing another Sandy Hook tragedy from ever happening again?
Tax credit for 90% of the cost of a gunsafe up to a value of $1500. Might have stopped Sandy hook, even if it doesn't it would likely save dozens of kids lives every year. Yep. Do I get it retroactively for my two safes? THIS is the kind of thing we should be considering conceding as a group. Because make no mistake- it's an infringement on our RIGHT. But that doesn't mean it's not a smart tactical move for us gun owners to make. I vet the NRA says something similar Friday... When I suggested the credit, I didn't suggest a link to safe storage law. I was thinking that rather than a mandate, an incentive to having more firearms stored safely was a good policy. BTW I have 4 year old at home, and she knows, like Eddie Eagle teaches, that guns are not to touch and if she sees one to find an adult, but my guns are in a safe. I have ready access firearms too and they are in a quick acessable safe.
The collection of taxes which are not absolutely required, which do not beyond reasonable doubt contribute to public welfare, is only a species of legalized larceny. Under this Republic the rewards of industry belong to those who earn them. Coolidge
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Campfire Outfitter
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I am open to suggestions that don't involve any outright bans which is what the other side is currently pushing for. What suggestion do you have for preventing another Sandy Hook tragedy from ever happening again?
Tax credit for 90% of the cost of a gunsafe up to a value of $1500. Might have stopped Sandy hook, even if it doesn't it would likely save dozens of kids lives every year. Yep. Do I get it retroactively for my two safes? THIS is the kind of thing we should be considering conceding as a group. Because make no mistake- it's an infringement on our RIGHT. But that doesn't mean it's not a smart tactical move for us gun owners to make. I bet the NRA says something similar Friday... Gun safes are required in California, have been for years. Every time I buy a gun I must sign an affidavit stating the make and model of my safe. That is after the two week waiting period to buy a gun that is on the "approved list". I don't think safes should be required and I certainly don't want the government wasting tax dollars buying them for people who can obviously afford them. That being said I have a safe because I want to protect my firearms from fire and theft and would have one in any case.
www.paracay.comIt's better to live rich than die rich. Live simply so that I may simply live large.
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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I just had another interesting thought in regards to mental health and firearms possession and this isn't too far off the mark.
Child abuse.
The way it stands right now if a neighbor, friend or relative accuses you of child abuse you are guilty until you prove your innocence.
Ponder that.
Last edited by fish head; 12/19/12.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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That's the glaringly obvious problem with a much stricter "mental health" requirement for firearms possession.
Would my head injury last year have DQ'd me in such a scenario? I'll tell you this. I normally unlock the safe in the house, which is near my bed, at night, and then lock it when I get up. For a period of time that I won't specify, mainly because I can't really remember much about that era, I didn't unlock it at night. I didn't feel that in my impaired state I should be jumping out of bed at 4 am, grabbing a gun, and killing something. Which is something I've done with fair regularity in the last 20 years out here.
Point being, I suppose, that I decided if nothing else I needed to put the brakes on (by opening the safe). However, does that mean I'd have willingly let the State judge me defective and unworthy of gun possession?! [bleep] no!
It's a tough one.
The CENTER will hold.
Reality, Patriotism,Trump: you can only pick two
FÜCK PUTIN!
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You guys are on the track I brought up recently, in an attempt to show the reality that mental illness isn't just about raving "nut jobs". The authority for diagnosing mental illness is the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of the American Psychiatric Association, DSM IV, containing some 200 categories. Not all are of equal seriousness nor of conditions that everybody would recognize and commonly consider "mental illness".
Any law that contained simply "mental illness" or "a history of mental illness" would cast very broad net and could very well include the kinds of situations or conditions you described.
Paul
Stupidity has its way, while its cousin, evil, runs rampant.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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I'm sure it's all covered in 13,000 pages of obamacare.
Son of a liberal: " What did you do in the War On Terror, Daddy?"
Liberal father: " I fought the Americans, along with all the other liberals."
MOLON LABE
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Anyone who believes that the present temper of the public would allow teachers to be armed is delusional. It just ain't going to happen.
Floating ideas like that is what gives our side a reputation of lunacy.
Does anyone here think that high capacity magazines will not soon made illegal? When they are will that be such a big deal? Why? Spanky, it sounds like YOU are wishing for a magazine ban. Why? GFY
Islam is a terrorist organization.
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I have no problem with a high cap magazine ban. Why? Because I think it would be a nothing to throw out there. If that would satisfy them why not? Tell me; who needs more than ten to git it done? Anyone who does most probably knows how to throw in another ten.
This whole mess is going to end up with laws similar and probably less onerous than present California laws.
What pisses me off is that one of the main reasons we are moving to Oregon is to escape the "Kalifornia" gun laws and now they will be following us and all of you.
www.paracay.comIt's better to live rich than die rich. Live simply so that I may simply live large.
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I rarely start a new post (aside from the pick'em threads) and rarely partake in the political arguments. Given up on economics threads as ideology seems to trump numeric evidence. But I thought I'd do so at this time only because I haven't seen the points I want to make on any of the numerous threads.
The point it this: The 2nd Amendment won't save gun rights. Not this time.
Stubbornly hiding behind it and making the same arguments in the same way isn't going to work. Too many of these mass shooting of our most vulnerable have taken place. Most people don't give two [bleep] what the constitution says when they see pint sized body bags coming out of a kindergarten school. That is just the way it is. A man's primary function, the reason God and evolution has shaped us as we are and allowed the species to continue, is to provide, care for, and protect those around us. It is just that simple.
And in this society at this day and time we are being shown we cannot do so.
We have become a society that can grow emasculated males, unrepentant sociopaths, base men who live only to feed their lusts, and even monsters who strike out at those around them. We can grow those in droves. But men who believe mankind has a higher purpose? Men who have been instilled with what we used to term the cardinal virtues? Men who are fit to mentor and raise the next generation so that they are fit to receive the world? Seems to be a lost art.
My point is this: Of course mental illness is at the root of this shooting. We all know that. But where is the accommodation from us regarding mental illness?
Think about it. How many times have we tossed around our disdain for any government paid health care? How many employee based health plans substantially or even completely ignore mental illness? Who exactly is going to pay for getting these young men identified and out of circulation? Who among us will stand up and say that this is a prudent spending of resources? Who is going to go along with even the notion of placing young adults into custody when there is only a small but real risk that they will eventually go apeshit and murder those around them?
We had this discussion in the 80s and we decided that not only did we not wish to pay for the care and custody of mentally ill people any more than absolutely necessary but ALSO that we didn't even feel comfortable doing so. Are we ready to revisit that issue?
I bring this up not to inflame but just to offer a few questions. We talk about violent video games and a septic culture while dismissing the availability of some types of weapons that can turn a 3 person shooting into one of dozens. The other side dismisses the risk of having a septic culture and hours on end blasting away realistic men on the computer while talking about the availability of weapons that can turn a 3 person shooting into something much worse.
There is going to have to be something more than "the second amendment says so and so" this time. Might be a good time to take a look at ourselves and see what this should be.
IMvHO,
Will Thoughtful post Will, and requires some thoughtful intellectual honesty before responding, I require more time than others apparently. Charlie
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Campfire 'Bwana
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It all boils down to freedom of choice and training. Bottom line is to adhere to the principles of keeping one's yap shut, exercise due diligence with concealment and train to fight. I know that I personally would have no problems.
A good principle to guide me through life: “This is all I have come to expect, standard lackluster performance. Trust nothing, believe no one and realize it will only get worse…”
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One of the reasons I believe that arguing that a certain law infringes on the "right to defend ourselves from government tyranny" is on shaky ground is that I haven't really seen that explored in the SC decisions that have been handed down. I've seen a few vague references to it by certain justices over the years but I have never seen reason given as a driver of any of their decisions. And that is important because whether and how a challenged law infringes on a certain aspect of a law matters to them.
Another is I'm not sure that you could argue realistically that anything other than very extreme mag clip size differences would make much a difference when we are talking about the US military. I mean if we are talking about predator drones and black hawk helicopters and laser guided thumper guns and rocket propelled grenades and daisy cutter bombs.... well when you bring in all of that who is going to believe that a 30 round mag is going to be the great equalizer.
I have seen the SC reference personal defense though. And I've seen them speak to how certain laws make it difficult to impossible to accomplish it and therefor are struck down. Maybe some of our law staff around here can speak to that.
As far as mental illness goes Paul you have made great points. And I will tell you right now that the medical profession is going to have to play a pivotal role in determining what can and can't be accomplished. And I'll admit that it will need to be flexible enough to deal with changing treatments etc. It is going to be hard work. But well worth it I would argue.
Will
Smellin' a lot of 'if' coming off this plan.
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As far as mental illness goes Paul you have made great points. And I will tell you right now that the medical profession is going to have to play a pivotal role in determining what can and can't be accomplished. And I'll admit that it will need to be flexible enough to deal with changing treatments etc. It is going to be hard work. But well worth it I would argue.
Will All I've tried to do, in my small way, is to point out some realities for the sake of objectivity. Another way to look at DSM IV is that it includes as mental illnesses everything from serious psychoses to the psychological equivalent of the common cold. It is almost as much politics as science, q.v., the raging debates within psychiatry over the status of homosexuality, pathology or "normal". I have been bewildered at the apparent stone silence from organizations that represent mental health and behavioral science professionals as the national debate rages, with misinformation all over the place. Way past time for them to step up to the plate. OTOH, I have less than complete confidence in their objectivity. A good friend of mine, a psychologist licensed in several states, and a strong gun rights guy, told me that he resigned from the APA with a scathing letter about their liberal bias. Paul
Stupidity has its way, while its cousin, evil, runs rampant.
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