Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Muzzleloaders Smokeless powder question

Can anyone explain to me why you cannot use smokeless powder in muzzleloaders?

Specifically, how the pressures from smokeless can be that much different if you are shooting a 250gr bullet at the same fps or less.

I have researched this as much as possible and still have not found any valid (read scientific) reasons, except for the guy who would volume measure smokeless instead of weighing it.

If anyone has any links that can scientifically explain it to me, it would be appreciated.

Not a link but powder burning rate would be one reason. 30 grains of Blue Dot isn't the same as 30 grains of IMR 7828. There are enough fools having accidents without introducing a hundred or so different smokeless powders into the equation.

For cartridges the British have had nitro for black loads for slightly over a century. They were reduced Cordite loads. In this country IMR 4198, 4895 and 3031, and others, have been used successfully in cartridge nitro for black loads. I suppose given good pressure data nitro for black could be developed for muzzleloaders, but why? That's hardly the reason for shooting a muzzleloader. If I want to shoot smokeless I'll use one of my few modern firearms.

I agree, but Accurate 5744 is actually a little slower than black powder, is used as a BP substitute in the old BP cartridges.

I understand the the romance of the muzzleloaders, but for me, it is just another opportunity to hunt. My romance is with traditional/primitive archery equipment. So I understand where you are coming from.

I feel that it is more marketing and money than anything else. Have to buy black powder substitutes, use more powder etc.

I am looking for scientific reasons ie physic that it can't be used.

First of all there is no proof standard in the USA for a muzzleloader. You have no idea how much pressure the barrel, breach plug and action can handle.

Some ML barrels might be made from the same stock as a CF barrel such as T/C claims but the breach plug design would be dangerous with smokeless for several reasons. Just changing a breach plug from a flat face to a concave face can have a big difference on pressures.

Smokeless is also much harder on the flash hole in a breach plug. Its called erosion or flame cutting and once the hole gets too large, powder can get past the hole. Pressure on the primer sky rockets and the primer fails or worse.

Burn rate is only part of the powder equation. You can have two powders that are nearly grain for grain interchangeable in a cartridge but one is not suitable for use in any smokeless muzzleloader.

You can also have powders with the same number such as IMR4350, H4350 and AA4350. Two are similar and one is not for SML applications. They are nearly interchangeable for a centerfire. A experienced centerfire reloader would know why one is different. The average guy who shoots a few shots a year to extend his hunting time would be clueless.

You can load a few smokeless powders to similar peak pressures as subs but the "curve of that burn is different. It might rise to peak psi much faster than subs and make more pressure longer. It might also make peak pressure later in a weaker section of the barrel where the contour is thinner than the breach.

There are a ton of reasons why you should not and many well tested SML designs that work great with the correct powders. Why would you want to risk it in a barrel and action design of unknown quality. You can buy a safe SML for about the same cost of a Savage or less. Mine was $900 and the barrel can handle a 458Lott proof load without damage. Its burst strength is roughly triple my hottest sabot-less loads.

AA5744 is not slower burning than BP or any sub. Pressures easily exceed 30K psi with Savage book loads and spike far faster. It burn far hotter too. AA5744 will eat vent liners faster than any sub including BH209.

43gr AA5744 250gr XTP Savage 50cal

A post from another forum comparing a ML barrel, and a smokeless barrel.

The typical steel the barrel and breech plug are made from has a Tensile strength of 78,000 PSI, 60,000 PSI Yield strength and Elongation of 20 Percent if it is made from a Cold Rolled steel bar. (Ref 12L14). If the maker used Hot Rolled steel to make the barrel the strengths are: Tensile = 57,000 PSI, Yield Strength = 34,000 PSI and Elongation is 22 Percent.
These low carbon steels cannot be heat treated to increase their mechanical properties.

The typical barrel for your .30-06 is made from a fully heat treated, high strength steel.
There are several of these materials that may be used but the strength of one of them is:
Tensile Strength = 287,000 PSI
Yield Strength = 270,000 PSI
Elongation = 11 Percent.

As you can see, the high strength steel shown has a Tensile Strength that is 3.6795 times stronger, the Yield strength is 4.500 times stronger and although the elongation is only 55 percent, this factor does not usually come into play.

Thank you for your information, just curious. I do a a bunch of centerfire reloading, so I understand burn rates, single base, double base and pressure curves.

I thought BP and BP substitutes were extremely fast burning powders, as in mini explosive.

Nobody could seem to explain in scientific terms, just don't do it! was all I heard for replies.

BP burns fast, but not very efficiently. Half of it is blown out the muzzle unburned.

That's why the smokeless loads are about half the weight (in grains) of black powder or BP substitutes.

Is there any pressure tested data for smokeless, BP or BP substitute loads?

What kind of pressures do 100gr volumes and 150 gr volumes give?

Lyman Black Powder handbook 2nd edition has several bp and sub traces.

I can tell you that 120gr by volume of Blackhorn 209 and a 300gr sabot-less bullet in a 45cal makes about 26K psi. A 250gr and the same load is about 23K psi.

Black powder burns very quick .As to if most of it blows out the barrel , that depends on the load .
There is a point of diminishing returns . Normally, depending on the powder that�s around 100 grains .
I we look at the Lyman charts you will see that as you rich a given load , the increased benefit of larger loads starts to drop . The reason for that is because your chamber has grown faster then the pressure can build to fill the space .
IE. Prior to ignition the pressure chamber is confined to the size of the charge and blocked by the projectile . The millisecond that enough powder has ignited to move that projectile , the pressure area starts expanding.
This expansion of the pressure area , was one of the concerns of the Firearms guilds during their meetings in Liege during the early half of the 1800s concerning the primer that we today call the 209 . Some time around 1830 if I recall my reading correctly . Basically in so many words . Their conclusion was that the primer upset the load and enlarged the pressure chamber / area too to great of an existent during ignition . Thus creating the possibility of the pressure wave moving in two directions vs. a continual push down the bore . Now remember we are talking guns with barrels and breech plugs ,that on average were made to no where near the tolerances of even the cheapest guns of today .

With smokeless , it build pressure to a greater existent with far less powder by volume or by weight . Now remember we are talking milliseconds here. If we look at Overkills pressure chart and look at the spikes , what we are actually seeing is the powders ability to build and maintain pressure as the pressure chamber grows .
Why ?
Well because we are back to the powder being far more efficient . Its capable of filling the expanding pressure chambers with increasing pressure .

Also all BP is not the same . It maters how its mixed and the quality of the mix components,. Especially the type of carbon �charcoal � used . For instance . One of the reasons Swiss is such a good powder is because the type of charcoal .
Today with the synthetic powder , manufactures are using sugar based carbon . Which creates an increase in pressure but also increase ignition temperature . All the result of differences in the carbon component.
So now add in the gun design
Would it be possible to find a load size that would work safely for muzzle loading , using smokeless powder . The answer is a resounding YES .
HOWEVER , this �SAFELY� depends on the design of the gun . a lot of production guns today , carry whats call improved or modified breech designs . The anti chambers of these designs are often to large to be used safely with modern smokeless powders of any type..
As such the newer smokeless guns on the market today carry their own breech design that specifically for the use of �specific �smokeless powders .
So Why specific powders . Well in simple form each powder has its own attributes and its own requirements that it needs to perform .

The other issue also has been brought up concerning gas cutting which is a big problem when using a fixed breech design and smokeless powder . So you need a breech design that readily replicable or simply easily replaced .
That IMO is where the smokeless designs that use a brass cartridge casing truly shine as they should produce a much simpler maintained firearm and possibly because they appear to be nothing more then a barrel swap on a center fire design , capable of a broader range of powder choices .

But then we also , I think have to consider the user , who frankly , for the most part IMO is and will only continue to be incapable of loading their rifles to manufactures specification . Pushes the limits , then gets hurt front heir own stupidity .
So again. I see no reason why smokeless powders could not be used IF the gun was designed for their use to begin with OR if the powder had a �very � close characteristics of BP

Just a question here for some to possibly think about.
Can you make your own smokeless powder ?
If not then what will all this mater when you cant get or cant afford the reloading supplies to reload or use your gun ?
I look at BP as kinda like the wild wood weed . Some of you may be to young to remember that song LOL .But if need be we can just smile and wave sitting on our sack of seeds

cap......Even with lighter loads. What percentage of BP do you think is being burned?

Mauser Hunter & captchee,

Thank you for all the information it has been very helpful.

Can you run pressure curves of AA 5744 with 38gr of powder? Pyrodex and BH 209 with 100 & 150 gr/volume loads?

Who makes muzzleloaders that are safe with smokeless powder? Now that Savage is done. The TC Encore frame is strong enough, should I have one rebarreled with an appropriate steeled barrel.
I have a very good machinist/gunsmith that can make a breechplug with concave or flat powder chamber. Or whatever is appropriate.

Or should I just switch to BH 209 from the pyrodex and Black Magic I have used in the past. Got real sick of cleaning my muzzleloader this past season after it took me 8 years to draw the tag.

Yes. Most aren't strong enough.

I know of a bullet maker who loaded and shot smokeless in many guns other than those which are approved/sold as smokeless ML's. He had strain gauges and tried to be very cautious. I don't have time or funds for that. I just bought a Savage, many years ago, and moved on. Might be something to consider.

Well as I said , it depends . Load, barrel length and barrel bore size ��.
But considering the heat , the largest % is being burned with normal 100 grain loads . What�s spitting out on the ground or snow is mostly un burnt carbon or a mix of components. which by themselves burn at higher temps .
But again there is a point of diminishing returns . So if the load was large enough , you could in theory end up with some amount of powder being carried out the muzzle . But it IMO would have to be well clear of the muzzle flash or it would be ignited

what we think as a instontanious ignition really isnt . at first its a progressive burn . take a look at these slow speed videos of flintlocks firing . take not that you can actualy see the powder start to ignight and spread just prior to complete ignition . thats with Swiss Null B
http://www.blackpowdermag.com/featured-articles/siler-high-speed.php

now take a look at this one wich has had large grain cannon powder used for a priming . notice how you can see powder being blown from the pan . but that powder is being ignighted even though it no longer in the pan

http://www.blackpowdermag.com/featured-articles/siler-high-speed.php

CRS

SMI and a few other companies make barrels for the Encore that are capable of using smokeless. Bullberry offers a barrel but IIRC the plug should be upgraded with a plug from a machinist named Pete in PA. Someone on Dougs board also used a plug from a person named Ryan. Both plugs have more threads, Savage vent liners and are designed for smokeless applications.

None of these options are cheap.

Sure seems like a lot of toruble & expense to kill one more measly little ol' deer.

I got mine mainly to reduce the cost of recreational shooting, convenience and because fast twist 45s are scarce. Sighting in and leaving the bore fouled for extended periods before the hunting season is nice.

My Savage was as simple as removing the 50cal barrel and putting on the 45cal. Other builds get more complicated.

Does anyone here have the cpabilities to run computer similated pressure curves with BH 209, pyrodex and aa 5744 in various charges?

I do not have the program to do that, but it would be interesting to see.