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C & R's is a great way to add to a collection. Collection being the key word.
C&R does have a book which must be filled out on all purchases and sells.
The old boy out here, bought deals at gun shows, then sold the pistol or rifle for a profit asap. He got noticed somehow and is now in Fed prison. I believe he was up to 96 traceable sales in one year. He didn't have a FFL, don't know about the C & R.
Any and all be very careful in the future if you are trying to make a buck or two. Trying to upgrade your "collection" is the key.
Off to the deer lease, you guys have a good day.
~Molɔ̀ːn Labé Skýla~
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Just talked to the Zoning office again. They approved my letter. I can keep my inventory at the house, but customers will only come for transfers and pickup, not to browse or shop. This way I can build and hold inventory for gun shows. I have the LLC and state tax number, so I just need the FFL and insurance and I'm in business!
I agree with every one who says this ain't the way to do it just to get good deals on guns for yourself...there just ain't much profit margin.
"A government that robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of Paul."
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Campfire Tracker
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C & R's is a great way to add to a collection. Collection being the key word.
C&R does have a book which must be filled out on all purchases and sells.
The old boy out here, bought deals at gun shows, then sold the pistol or rifle for a profit asap. He got noticed somehow and is now in Fed prison. I believe he was up to 96 traceable sales in one year. He didn't have a FFL, don't know about the C & R.
Any and all be very careful in the future if you are trying to make a buck or two. Trying to upgrade your "collection" is the key.
Off to the deer lease, you guys have a good day. So how many guns can a guy buy and sell in one year before he is in trouble? I don't get why the ATF would care as long as all laws were followed and guns were transferred through propper FFL Licensed dealers. I mean if a guy buys/sells/trades to upgrade his collection, why would it matter that he had 96 transactions?
Buy once, cry once.
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Joined: Aug 2005
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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So how many guns can a guy buy and sell in one year before he is in trouble? I don't get why the ATF would care as long as all laws were followed and guns were transferred through propper FFL Licensed dealers. I mean if a guy buys/sells/trades to upgrade his collection, why would it matter that he had 96 transactions? Federal law: 18 USC 922(a)(1)(A)It shall be unlawful for any person except a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, or licensed dealer, to engage in the business of importing, manufacturing, or dealing in firearms...Now the logical question is "What does 'engage in the business of dealing in firearms' mean?". Best I've found is this: (C) as applied to a dealer in firearms, as defined in section 921(a)(11)(A) [18 USCS � 921(a)(11)(A)], a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to dealing in firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the repetitive purchase and resale of firearms, but such term shall not include a person who makes occasional sales, exchanges, or purchases of firearms for the enhancement of a personal collection or for a hobby, or who sells all or part of his personal collection of firearms; Really defines it, eh?
“ The Savage 99 Pocket Reference”. All models and variations of 1895’s, 1899’s and 99’s covered. Also dates, checkering, engraving.. Find at www.savagelevers.com
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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the principal objective of livelihood and profit \ That has been defined as 51% or more of a persons income.
The only thing worse than a liberal is a liberal that thinks they're a conservative.
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Campfire Ranger
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There is an ATF opinion that I read a long time ago that left me with the idea that "engage in the business" was taken to mean with the primary intent to turn a profit. Not that you actually had to, you may be a piss poor businessman. It's that you have the intent. c.f. the collector who buys a 5-fer with the intent of keeping the best one for his collection, and if he's lucky makes a few shekels selling the ones he doesn't want.
I'll leave the research to whom it really matters.
The key elements in human thinking are not numbers but labels of fuzzy sets. -- L. Zadeh
Which explains a lot.
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The ATF inspector's authority is pretty much relegated to paperwork and firearms. Being an FFL doesn't make you subject to having an ATF agent knock on your door at 2am in the morning to rummage through your sock drawer. But they CAN if they WISH - especially if they feel there's something fishy.... My inspection was scheduled about a week or so in advance. They can do 1 per year. Anything more than than(with few exceptions) requires a warrant. So if they show up at 2am in the morning, they'll need a warrant, same as any other private citizen. http://www.atf.gov/publications/factsheets/factsheet-ffl-compliance.html
NRA Benefactor Member
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Campfire Ranger
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I seem to recall that the opinion had to do with the manufacturing of explosives, mixing components together. "(E)ngaging in the business," a term in common, had to be interpreted to make the opinion.
The key elements in human thinking are not numbers but labels of fuzzy sets. -- L. Zadeh
Which explains a lot.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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nighthawk, here's a good court case where they talk about it in depth. There are two exclusions to the engaging in business rule, buying and selling for your collection or as a hobby. Making a profit sounds like it removes the hobby exception. http://www.paed.uscourts.gov/documents/opinions/05D0776P.pdfIn determining whether the personal collection or hobby exception applies, "there is no bright line rule. The fact-finder must determine whether the transactions constitute hobby-related sales or engagement in the business of dealing from the nature of the sales and in light of their circumstances."
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Taking all of the relevant factors into consideration, we find that over the time period in question the defendant purchased and sold approximately one gun per month. These purchases or sales were not made for the enhancement of the defendant's personal collection of guns or for a hobby. None of the firearms had any historical value. Rather, at least three of the purchases were made at the request of buyers, and with respect to two of those transactions, the defendant purchased and resold the guns on the same day. In every instance, the defendant sold the guns for profit, and on two occasions, the defendant informed the buyers to obliterate the serial numbers so he would not "get in trouble."
The defendant, without a license, wilfully "engaged in the business" of dealing in firearms by devoting "time, attention, and labor to dealing in firearms" on a regular basis, "with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the repetitive purchase and resale of firearms." The only good thing about this silly law is that they seem to only use it to get people they want for other reasons. In the case above he was doing straw purchases. But it doesn't remove the fact that the law is there with serious consequences.
“ The Savage 99 Pocket Reference”. All models and variations of 1895’s, 1899’s and 99’s covered. Also dates, checkering, engraving.. Find at www.savagelevers.com
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Campfire Ranger
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Thanks for the cite, pretty much follows my understanding. All the cases I've heard about were pretty egregious. Though there may be no "bright line rule" I'd advise staying well away from the shadows. Having been involved in agency enforcement I knew guys who would jump on anything to impress their bosses, no matter how inconsequential.
The key elements in human thinking are not numbers but labels of fuzzy sets. -- L. Zadeh
Which explains a lot.
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Well, it's been awhile, but I got approved for the license. I should receive it in a few weeks. Please feel free to "like" and "share" my facebook page: Bullshooters, Ltd (with the comma) with all your friends. We're a couple hundred yards outside colorado Springs city limits, so no city sales tax. We'll be doing $20 transfers, special orders, and eventually consigning and listing for folks on national sites. So Y'all who need to ship to or from CO Springs, keep us in mind. website is www.bullshootersltd.com. There's not much to it yet, but we'll be updating it once we get going.
"A government that robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of Paul."
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Campfire Tracker
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Congratulations! Giving my FFL up this Nov. when it expires. Getting old and don't want to burden my wife or kids with all the paperwork to terminate. Have operated for about twenty years out of my home. Very small operation; I've always done transfers for free, but $20 is very cheap in this day.
Talk is cheap - except when Congress does it.
Personally, I carry a gun because I'm too young to die and too old to
take an ass whoopin'
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I wish I could afford to do 'em for free. Obviously i won't charge the fee on anything I sell, that's just for those who buy from someone else and need to do the FFL transfer.
"A government that robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of Paul."
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Wasn't meant to be critical! Just the opposite, complimentary!
Talk is cheap - except when Congress does it.
Personally, I carry a gun because I'm too young to die and too old to
take an ass whoopin'
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I understand. Thanks. was just trying to clarify for others.
"A government that robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of Paul."
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