Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Handguns Arms for downed pilots question?

Last month I saw the movie �Rescue Dawn� which is the story of Dieter Dengler, a pilot who was shot down and kept as a POW in a VC POW camp. During his initial E&E he immediately ditched his pistol. Later in the movie, he decided to ditch his weapon again.

When I was in High School, I was in Air Force ROTC, and some of us attended a couple of hours at a weekend �refresher� on pilot survival that was held at Mather AFB back around 1981. I recall that the �instructor� had some conversation about firearms and his personal opinion back then was that they were just shy of useless. He said you could pull the cartridges apart for fuel to make a fire, but completely discounted the pistol as a hunting tool. I�m not sure what they carried back then, but if it was the Colt�s Cobra, of the S&W M-12, then I�d have to say that very few would be able to hunt with that.

So it got me to thinking, what did they teach our resident Pilots when you were in?

In the Dieter Dengler incidence, when he was first caught, his pistol really wouldn�t have made any difference. VC got the drop on him, and there were a bunch of them. But there was one situation where I�m sure he greatly regretted ditching his AK, when his traveling companion was killed.

As a defensive tool, I see a handgun being of very limited use; but certainly useful. You�re not likely to defend against a squad of soldiers, but you most certainly can defend against hostile locals. I recall all the way back in 1981 thinking this, as most scenarios we talked about back then were mostly in the light of Vietnam since it was still on the minds of many (as in, if shot down, you�d likely be in hostile territory).

Lastly - I always wondered about the various survival rifles (M4 .22 Hornet, etc). Were any of those issued/used much?

I bet the M4's "disappeared" a lot...

The first thing they teach is that you only have what's physically on you. In fixed wing scenario's an ejection is usually in play and there is no holding on to anything during that violent experience. In rotary wing aircraft, a crash leaves you scrambling to get away from the aircraft as fast as possible. More often than not, injured.

So, once the evasion has begun, you only have what was physically on you. Normally, your hand gun.

They don't tell you what to do with your gun. They tell you to survive. You're the one on the ground, you have to make your own decisions on when best to use it or not.

Most things they teach are principles. Don't draw attention to yourself being the main one.

Having been through SERE school, the one thing that I personally decided.... there is not a chance in hell that I'd let them take me alive...... the gun is my insurance policy for that.

I got extremely limited range training - one day split between the .38 S&W revolver and the CAR-15. Total. My three survival schools didn't even touch on using them, IIRC.

As I've mentioned before, the six pilots in my small unit all carried them with six tracer rounds, to be used as backup signalling devices. On the other hand, because we also got the real "Mission Impossible" speech about being disavowed and not rescued if we were shot down, we all knew that at most we'd be using one round of the six -- in lieu of a black pill. A tall white guy wouldn't stand much chance alone 100 miles deep in Cambodia.

When in ROTC we were visited by a former Air Force Captain who spent 4.5 years as a POW in the Hanoi Hilton. I think the guy who visited us was the first guy off the plane on that famous video where our troops were returned. We had to have signed permission slips from our parents to attend, and while I know he watered things down�it was still pretty scary stuff. I was already in the Delayed Entry Program for the US Army, and I decided right then and there if I were surrounded by the enemy and I had a pocket knife�I�m lunging at someone. Our enemies have a history of being diicks to American POW�s.

I fought in a different war than many here have. The thing I feared most, and determined would never happen is my kids being able to go online and see their dad being beheaded with a knife...

I'd endure whatever I had to in order to come home, but I know that this current enemy never keeps prisoners, they make examples.

There are quite a few cases of POW's being thankful they did not blow their heads off...


Travis

There is that.


Travis

Although from some of the stories it's obvious when you were in the service... you might mention the time period. The reason i bring this up is i was in the Army in a combat unit soon after Vietnam, and to be frank I felt the duty station training was Crap. The main purpose for our existence was in the event the Cold war went hot and felt that the training suggested we were just bodies to be thrown against the Soviets and possibly Chineese hordes. I believe and hope that it is much better these days. Don't even get me started on Weapons.

Jerry

My aircrew all carried 45's not SOP for '69-'70 but it was mainly for Gunship/Jolly Green crews.Fast mover drivers all carried 38's.We had several 223's on board with plenty of ammo and woulda used them for perimeter defense in case we got bagged and survived the crash.Handguns were strictly last resort...

I am not trying to stir the pot here. I find it amazing that by simply reading a few paragraphs from others, the vast differnce in the mindset of the other brances of the service. It is easy to tell who isn't a Marine.

We were taught that as soon as you ejected, you were no longer "technically" a "combatant" because you had given up your means of fighting but if you used your pistol you were assuming the combatant role again AND if you shot a civilian you were no longer covered by the Geneva accords.

My thoughts were that if I made it feet wet I would use it to scare unarmed fishermen away and if I didn't get feet wet, the same would apply to unarmed farmers, etc. especially if I or my wingman got out a good call and had reason to believe SAR could get to me.

When we were working up for the cruise that would ultimately result in giving Khadaffi an early wake up call most of us qualified with our squadrons pistols which were S&W 39's. Our Skipper was born and raised in Philadelphia, Pa. so he had not had much, if any, experience with firearms. When his turn came to shoot, I think he hit the silhouette a couple of times with the other rounds all over the place.

A few months later when we were doing a lot of stuff below Khadaffi's "Line of Death" CAG authorized us to carry weapons. At an AOM one day our CWO3 "Gunner" stood up and asked the Ready Room "who wants to carry a pistol?" so he could get them drawn from the ship's armory. Most everyone elected to carry one but the Skipper said, "Gunner, if I took a pistol, you'd only need to issue me one bullet."

I couldn't help myself and said, "Skipper, I've seen you shoot; you'd probably want to take TWO!" That got a good laugh out of the Ready Room.

I'm aircrew on rotary and Fixed wing aircraft. I carry an M4 and a pistol while working because I have to leave the aircraft to perform my duties.

I'm not going to give up, I'll fight with whatever means possible until I am unable to fight.

No offense taken from my POV. Aircrews aren't grunts that wasn't our primary training and actually we didn't do much more range time than the average guy.Several of my crew couldn't hit a bull in the azz with a 45 at 25ft if their lives depended on it but if our perimeter defenses should come into play the guys that could shoot were always tagged.

Woody,

I find it interesting how time has changed training as well. It's interesting for me to hear how you'd stay with the aircraft and set a perimeter. We were taught that our aircraft was a magnet and our best chance for survival was to destroy it and egress. Even our weapons were designed for that purpose.

Here is the M240H in the butterfly trigger configuration...


It came, standard, with an "egress kit" that allowed us with just a flick of a lever to slide the butterfly trigger up off the back of the gun, and snap on the stock and grip. It would look like this in just a matter of 15 seconds...

Bet Marines know the value of "Fix Bayonets" also...

I'd wager that you are correct

jorge1 flew with a 1911 if memory serves

Our crew compliment was normally six or seven and the thought was several would be critically injured and would have to stay with the aircraft should it go down.If all stayed we had a better chance of survival with CAS assistance or getting picked up by air rescue rather than dispersing like rats in the jungle.We had a bullseye on our 6 anyway and most of us felt more comfortable fighting it out than the other alternative of capture.If we went down crazy rotary wingnuts were the ones who saved our behinds.Jolly Green crews had ballz of steel and pulled many from the jaws of death or capture.

Please explain WTF does that mean. As a Naval Aviator (and BTW there ain't no such animal as a Marine Aviator, if you doubt me, check their wings for one and second, I trained and trained with Marines), there was really very little training (if at all on exchanging lead once you were on the ground.
In the first place, it's plain suicidal to exchange fire armed just with a sidearm against a bunch of gomers with AKs, still I know of at least one gent with brass balls that did just that, used a S&W 38 and duked it out with a gook and with an AK..and won. When he finally ran out of ammo and gave up, he got bayoneted and got some teeth knocked out by a rifle butt. When the gook NCO bent over to see if he was dead, he spit blood and teeth in his face. His name is Captain Rodney Knudsen, USN (ret), he was the back seater for then Ensign Ralph Gaither flying F-4s in 67. That called guts ace, and there's no training for that.

During The Gulf Wars it was like Dodge City and pretty much like Vietnam, we carried what we wanted. Most carried Brownings, I carried an Argie 45 and a few Glocks. By OEF, if you wanted a sidearm you got an M-9. And BTW, I spent 30 Years in the Naval Service. There's a hint in there for you.

Edited to add: ALL FLIERS from ALL SERVICES were taught the same thing, if you get shot down, EVADE, COMMUNICATE and wait for RESCUE, even Marines.

I wasn't really aiming it at you or anyone in general. I was aircrew on CH-53D&E's in the early to mid 1990's. I was no grunt by anymeans but all Marines are trained to be a basic rifleman no matter what your primary MOS maybe. The big difference I see from the post above is that I can't think of a single Marine that would ever make those statements. In our world we are going to accomplish the mission or die trying. Once shot down the mission changes but surrender and or shooting oneself would never come into my mind. Once down and all moving parts have come to a halt. I am going to egress the aircraft helping any others in need. Next would be to render first aid to anyone needing it. Once everyone is out and cared to anything needing to be destroyed would be. Then the mission turns to getting back behind friendly lines. Any and all weapons would be fully utilized to accomplish that mission. So the weapons I carried then was both an M-16A2 and M9. My pilot and co-pilot would both have a M9. In each window would be a .50 Cal.