Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunter's Campfire Legalize Drugs

Pot was real big twenty years ago...I know my mom and stepdad smoked it...

Genesis 1:12 "bring forth all seed bearing plants and herbs so that they may be used". marijuana is nothing but a plant, not some hideous concoction made up in a lab somewhere by south american drug lords.
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<br>Hate to tell ya Maximus, but I have a Living Bible on hand. It was the first one I ever owned, and it's at least 9 years old I'll bet. Since it's a paperback, it's fading fast, but this is what it says:
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<br>"And he said, Let the earth burst forth with every sort of grass and seed-bearing plant, and fruit-trees with seeds inside the fruit, so that theses seed will produce the kinds of plants and fruits they came from. And so it was, and God was pleased." Genesis 1:11-12
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<br>It doesn't saying anything about being used in there, so well, hate to disappoint you, but ya know. Don't you hate it when people misquote the Bible for their own purposes?
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<br>As far as drugs, there isn't an easy solution, and I don't know what to do about it. Taking out the big dope dealers would help more than the users though, and I know too many people who use dope, even though one is too many. I don't figure on using it anyways. Another thing I do for sport is running, and the last thing I need is bad lungs or something like that. But as far as taking care of the problem, the government's already trying to teach kids as young as 10 to avoid them, but it doesn't seem to be doing that much good. We can do rehab all we want, but we can't change a user who wants to keep using them as far as his desire goes. Oh well, I'll let you guys worry about that.

you are correct. i just did a search and it does not state "so that they may be used". it does state "and God saw that it was good." that was a complete misquote on my part. Admittedly, it has been a while since i read that particular passage.
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<br> but it is a moot point. if the Koran said it was cool to get high, when that change anyone's mind? the point is, we do not have to live by any certain religious text or practices in this country. we can fornicate and worship other gods as we see fit.
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<br> and as far as poisonous plants and such, it does not neccessarily mean that we have to ingest them. they could be used for other purposes, i.e. poisoning vermin.
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<br> i am not on any kind of agenda, i realize that i will change no one's mind here. some points i will put in plain spelling, and will not post here again on the subject unless directly invited to:
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<br> 1. we lock up small time marijuana users while child rapist and murders go free due to "prison overcrowding". does anyone think that is right?
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<br> 2. said prison time does not rehablitate the drug users, for the most part. they come out a lot worse off. does anyone disagree on that point?
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<br> 3. the well off get out of going to prison for drug offences while the vast majority there are of the lower socio-economic class.
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<br> 4. it would take such extreme mesures domesticly and internationally to get rid of our countries drug problem that it is inconceivable.
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<br> you may disagree with any other points i have made in previous postings on this subject, but i would like to hear someone say that any or all of the above points are incorrect.
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<br> i appreciate everyone's knowledge and experience here, this is my personal belief and experiences on this subject

The problem isn't drugs, it isn't peer pressure, it isn't even terrorists. The problem is the government. Sixty years ago, the bureaucracy discovered that if they created a crisis, the people would embrace the government solution, even at the expense of their freedom. This isn't a new issue, it's the same old one with a new face. The Great Depression was, in part, created by government mishandling of a financial crisis. FDR's answer was The New Deal. A solution that eliminated many of the avenues that the free market would have utilized to recover in much less time than it did under The New Deal. The New Deal was the first step towards Socialism (see Murray Rothbard's book; The Great Depression). Later on, we had the War on Inflation, largely due to Jimmy the Peanut's misguided attempts to control the post-Vietnam War economy. All that he accomplished was double digit interest rates and the loss of the Panama Canal (plus moving us a little closer to the Socialist Utopia) Reagan managed to roll back the Socialist State slightly, but Bush the Elder undid all of the good that Reagan did. He also took Reagan's War on Drugs and turned it into a vehicle with which the Legislative and Executive branches were able to circumvent the Constitution (giving us the nightmare of Asset Forfeiture Laws and the unravelling of the Fourth Amendment). And let's not forget the contemptible blob of protoplasm that inhabited the White House in the nineties. His record-breaking tax increase, the initiation of the campaign to Socialize medicine, and the incompetent handling of foreign affairs paved the way for those in office to stop taking steps towards Socialism and begin a full-bore run at it. Now we have the War on Terrorism, in which there is already rumblings of repealing the Posse Comitatus. There are claims of ties between the terrorists and the drug trade, like they didn't know that poppies were grown in the Middle East.
<br>What is the point of all of this? Simple, drugs, crime, and terrorists are not the problem. The problem is that we have been conditioned to scream for the government to "do something" when a crisis arises. The same government that has raised our taxes to the point of forcing both parents to work in order to make ends meet, thus leaving our children to the so-called "guidance" of government schools, television and pop culture. The same government that forces us to contribute to Social Security, while they themselves are exempt from it. The same government that requires us to work as slaves so as to allow them to live like Arab Sheikhs. The same government that sends our sons and daughters off to fight in wars that were provoked by their inept foreign policy, while their sons and daughters are tucked away in Ivy League colleges, out of harm's way. In other words, the government that has distracted us long enough to become the same type of royalty that spurred the founding fathers to break away from the crown. In short, (OK, too late) we need to take back control of our children AND our government. Hold them accountable, force them to listen to us, and punish them when they stray too far outside of the proper path.

I hate to get into this one but there have been so many posts, my 2 cents worth will bring it up to about a dollar.
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<br>1. Drugs are already legal and we all take them. Coffee, nicotine, aspirin and thousands of over the counter remedy's, prescription drugs, etc.. What we are talking about is controls on drugs that someone (read government) have decided are bad.
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<br>2. Efforts to legislate/control morality or ethics have and never will be successful, due to human behaviours. Is there anyone here who does not think tobacco is a harmful drug, yet due to economic forces, it has never been regulated. Prostitution has been illegal for years yet continues to thrive. The drugs most people here are opposed to have been illegal for years, yet are widely available. Any 13 year old can easily find drugs on the street, so whether they are legal or not is a moot point. They are freely available. (Waders - like that legal term :-) )
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<br>3. The reason you have big time drug dealers is the huge profit available, in supplying an illegal drug. Just as with alchohol in the 20's, this brings in organized crime and creates huge profits. Does anyone see organized crime involved with the alchohol business anymore? No, because it is "legal" business.
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<br>5. While there are serious problems with alchoholics in this country, you rarely hear of anyone turning to crime to support their habit. Why, because it does not cost thousands of dollars a month to be an alchoholic, thus the need to steal to support a habit is not there.
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<br>What does all that mean? I can not say I am in favor of legalizing all drugs but on the other hand, the current method IS NOT WORKING. Time to try something else, even if it is wrong. As someone else pointed out earlier, virtually all drugs were freely available in the US until the turn of the century and we were still a growing, vibrant society. Were there druggies? Yes, lots of grandmothers, etc. were hooked on Laudnum (opium), etc. but all in all the society functioned, without the massive problems we experience today. Is today a different time? Sure, but again, what we are doing today IS NOT WORKING! If we are serious about fixing the problem, we really do need to consider doing something different.

No parallel between drugs and guns, eh? Ok.......try this argument......
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<br>Drug use as a cause of death among adolescents does not even make the radar screens. But guns certainly do, so which should be prohibited all you people in favor of prohibition? CDC, National Institute of Health, "Causes of deaths among adolescents, age 15 to 19", 1998, all races, per 100,000........total 70.6, injuries 55, Motor vehicle accidents, 26, All firearms, 16.3, Firearms homicides, 9.6, Firearms suicide 5.6.
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<br>Obviously we would save vastly more numbers of children by prohibition of private ownership of firearms than by stricter enforcement of drug laws. Why aren't all you anti-drug people(because drugs are bad and can kill people, or make them unproductive members of society) jumping on the anti-gun bandwagon? The same arguments apply. Just take all the anti-drug arguments, change the phrasing ever so slightly and substitute guns for drugs. Freedom is personal responsibility and the right to make your own choices, and with that freedom comes the obvious corollary that some people make bad choices. Take away the drug choice, less freedom, take away the abortion choice, less freedom, take away the guns, less freedom, take away habeas corpus, less freedom, take away the 4th amendment, less freedom. What amazes me is that people who are pro-gun can be so quick to deny freedom of choice to others. "It isn't good for society to have all those druggies around" But it is OK to have all those dead kids due to firearms...........sure..........
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<br>Either you are for freedom, and allowing individuals to choose and to suffer the consequences of their choices, if any, or you are just standing in line patiently waiting for the gun choice to be taken away.

Homicide ain't legal either, and these drugs are illegal as well. Also, I'm willing to bet that a lot of those homicides were committed with firearms that were stolen, or sold on the black market. So, if making drugs illegal didn't stop today's epidemic, why would making firearms illegal do anything?

The really frustrating thing about this is that we already have a historical model for this dilemma. The Prohibition Era should have taught us that prohibiting something simply creates another avenue for organized crime to make money.
<br>As it is, the war on drugs has been most profitable for those that supply drugs and for those that allegedly combat the drug problem. Part of the problem is that, there isn't any incentive to end the drug problem. If in fact the War on Drugs ended, that would put hundreds, if not thousands of law enforcement officers and various bureaucrats out of work, not to mention the huge budgets that the DEA and their brethern have managed to win as a result of the ever increasing demand for something to be done. No, I'm afraid that there is too much money to be made fighting the war on drugs, so we'll never see the end of it.

I am certanly still not in favor of legalization. First hand knowledge of drugs I have none. Perefiral knowledge I have a lot.
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<br>As I see it and as the recurring underlying theme in all these post has been and is it is the money to be made in the trade that is the real problem. Some people are self destructive and will do so by one means or another no matter what. Booze, drugs, armed robbery or red headed women. Those we can not worry about except to feel sorry for and try to help IMO.
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<br>It is the money made supplying the market that is the devil driving the trade. The more expansion of the market the more money so the pushers have an incentive to expand the market. Am I correct so far?
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<br>Some will say legalize and the government will make the money and set the price so cheap that the market incentive will be gone. True, perhaps, if you trust the government and don't mind seeing those curious about drugs have easy access taking the chance that even more adicts will not be created in the process.
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<br>Some, and I am one of them, say keep it criminal. I will be the first to admit that what we have been doing has not been an overwhelming success. I believe it is because we are, for the most part, attacking the wrong end of the problem. I can only speak for my area because that is all I know for sure. It is easy for any lawman to catch the end user and put the poor sod in jail. That is what they do therefore. Not meaning any offense to the lawboys. It is just the way it is. It is much more difficult to catch the dealer and even more difficult to catch the money behind the dealer.
<br>I know for a fact of three people in my area who supply money but never actually touch the product. The law knows who they are too but can't or haven't been able to get enough hard evidence to catch them. It would take years to worm into the system enough to destroy it and I believe money and commitment are lacking to spend either just so some smart lawyer ( no offense meant to our resident attorney Wade) can get a walk on a technicality. I have seen that happen too. More than once.
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<br>In any case to solve the problem the market must be destroyed. How is the multi-million dollar question.
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<br>BCR

OK, I'll check in one more time on this. I have arrested more people than I can count for crimes related to abuse of drugs, and yes alcohol. From domestic disturbances to murder 1. They always seem to return to the system with frequency and in an escalitating mannor. Never recall arresting anybody for over eating, smoking (though you can be in Kalifornia now days I understand) or drinking too much coffee.
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<br>I have seen people killed for a small amount of drugs or their pocket change to buy drugs with. The poor, inner city dwellers suffer the most because they are so concentrated but it happens, even in Mayberry,USA. Never saw anybody killed for a cup of coffee, did see a pair of drunks (man and wife) cut each other up pretty bad over who got to carve the turkey one Thanksgiving though. But that is another story.
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<br>Suspending the Bill of Rights to fight anything is just an excuse to make controlling the masses easier for a large central government, not fighting crime or terrorism. No Prohabition did not work, but legalization of drugs won't either. Education and tough laws for violators IMHO is the proper approach, and yes it will take time and much effort but the liberal left, if nothing else should have taught us the lesson of perserverence pays. Even if the cause is phony!
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<br>Morality, ethics, common sense and decency can not be legislated, they must be part of the learning curve of life. This IMHO is the only way to prevent abuses of any kind, and their will always be some that will never learn. They are the ones that need to be held accountable for their actions and punished for their transgretions, not all of society.
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<br>Comparing prohibition to illegal drugs is also a fallocy. Booze was socially acceptable to the masses. If we let drugs gain the same status they will never go away either, and that is the road we are now racing down at break neck speed.
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<br>Bottom line is that we are a money driven society. As such if there is money to be made someone will find a way to provide the product or service whether legal or not. Taking out the profit is the only way to curb an activity, no law on the books will.
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You got to the guts of the problem. If our government were serious about ending it they would go after the suppliers like they are going after the Taliban. Filling our jails with the users without really going after the supply is just putting a bandaide on the sore without treating the pox.
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<br>I know a few things about how this effects kids. I have been told that it is easier for a kid to get pot than it is to get a beer. I believe that. But my question is Why? My sons colud easily sneak a beer out of my fridge, they could get a little rum out of my cabinet, they could get one of my guns to play with when I am not looking too, but they don't Why?
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<br>I talk to kids about this all the time. We parents want to keep our kids away from pushers. What does a pusher look like? Let me tell you something, kids don't get drugs from pushers. The first time your child is offered drugs, it will be one of his best friends who offers it to him. We teach our kids to "say no" to drug pushers. We don't give them the strength to say no to a little "harmless pot" that their best friend offers them. The other thing that floors me is where your child's best friend got his pot. Most of the time he got it out of his parents stash. High School students are fairly honest when you ask them honest questions. Most of them believe that pot is less harmfull than beer and that beer and pot are both less harmful than smoking cigaretts. Some who smoke pot often, say they would never smoke tobaco because of what it does to you. Where and how did they come up with those ideas? Some how they have gotten some bad information.
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<br>When I first moved to this town I bought a house in a nice looking middle class neighborhood. Two houses down my street lived a middle aged lady with three kids about the same age as mine. Our kids played together. Before long I begain to notice odd things there. First the lady did not work. There was a lot of traffic in and out of that home with a sharp peak in volume around the first of the month. And a lot of traffick down the alley at night which stoped at her backyard fence just breifly. I talked with some of the other neighbors who pointed out outher odd things which I had not noticed. Getting to the point, I reported all this to the police as possible drug traffic / dealing. Months passed and nothing changed. I spoke personally with a good friend who is a detective here. He told me that lady was a known dealer with prior convinctions and the house was under survalence. Nothing happened within the three years that I lived there. I sold the house and moved to an exclusive heighborhood out of fear for my kids. I did not want them getting any of that crap from those lady's kids. That was ten years ago and that lady is still there and still in busness. Why?
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<br>I now live in a home that is really beyond my means. I have learned that the only fences that work are economic. And again i am ranting on this topic.... Sorry, I get really worked up about this because every day I go to work and see kids who are strugling with it. Substance abuse is really killing our kids. My wife works in a youth "jail" All the boys there are repeat offenders and are there basically because they would not follow conditions of their paroal or court orders. They are not all there for drug offenses but some form of drug abuse is at the root of all the crimes thay have commited.
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<br>The last thing we need to do is make that stuff legal.

IIFID, As a quick note on your statistic about deaths related to firearms, if you investgate that number a little farther, you will find that of all deaths of persons between 4 and 18 years, related to firearms, 96%+ were also related to the commission of a felony, some gang related activity, or an act related to drugs. ( US DOJ, Bureau of Statistics, 1998.) I just finished my Master's thesis on this topic. So there is a relationship between drugs and firearms. The failure is that of the press to make the connection. A lot of them like a little puff now and then or a little snort occassionally. They don't like guns though.
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<br>Anyway, the main point I wanted to make has nothing to do with guns or the press. The point I wanted to make is history. If you look at the course of all the great civilizations of history, they all have one thing in common. Immediately prior to thier demise, they became overridden with self indulgence, acceptance of deviant behavior, a decline of the family unit, and a great moral degradation. I don't know if it's the nature of man to not know how to handle life if there is no struggle, but that would certainly seem to be the case. Why should this society be any different? We struggled through the revolution, the indian wars, the civil war era, the expansion west, and the pre WWII epoc. Since WWII we have been a true world power and we have gotten progressively more decadent in our way of life. Things that would have gotten a person hung by the neck 40 years ago, are now little more than a wrap on the wrist. Men fathering babies and walking out, robbery, murder, theft, the gradual encroachment of the police state, they are degrading our will to survive as individuals.
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What you say is true, no doubt that we are living in the decline of our nation.

I think this'll be my last post on the subject, but Maximus made some points and asked if anyone had a different opinions. I do:
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<br>1. In my state murderers and child rapists do not go free due to prison overcrowding. Washington does not have parole so the most you can get off your original sentence is a percentage for good behavior. The most a murderer can get is 15%. So, IF he is a good boy and was sentenced to 30 years (I'm using a non-capital case), he will get 5 years off his sentence. If he gets in fights, or breaks other rules, he'll do his full 30 years instead of 25.
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<br>2. Prison gives people the opportunity to get off drugs. Drugs are harder to get in prison than you think. Movies depict otherwise, and ex-cons talk big, but in truth, they are fairly tough to come by. If people go back to drugs upon their release from prison, that serves as weight for my argument there is no point in making them legal--they're too addicting. But, I think prison does either cure people or at least scare them enough to leave drugs alone.
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<br>3. You said high class folk get off free and the poor folk go to jail. I disagree. People win or lose cases based upon the evidence. Regardless, why is that supposition a basis to legalize drugs?
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<br>4. Yes, if America wants to rid itself of drugs, the task is enormous. However, that too is not a sound basis for legalizing them.
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<br>Gots to go to work now. Later all!

Danr55:
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<br>How could any firearms death that is not accidental not be related to the commission of a felony?
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<br>There is no question that a large part of many of the current crimes are a direct result of the abject failure of the so-called war on drugs. It is hard to quantify but I would venture to say that a majority of burglaries, robberies, drivebys, homicides, etc are directly or causatively related to drugs. For instance, while gangs may not be totally drug oriented, the extremely violent behavior of the last few years is just as much about the economics of their areas of drug dealing as it is just turf wars. Take away the money factor in drugs and I would suspect the societal costs would plummet, less robberies, less burglaries, less shootings, etc. We have spent hundreds of billions of dollars in the last couple of decades to interdict cocaine and heroin. Not to mention the costs of incarcerating hundreds of thousands of people that are not threats to others. The most direct indicator of the success of our interdiction/war on drugs programs is the street price of both. I don't have the figures for heroin but coke is cheaper now than ever, adjusted for inflation. Therefore, the system is not working as designed.
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<br>The relevant question is, would some other system, such as legalization produce better results. The devil is in the details and there are a myriad of details to consider, but broadly, I think legalization should involve free or greatly reduced hard drug prices to those who are willing to admit that they are addicted. Divert most of the money spent on interdiction, prosecution, jailing, etc into massive education of kids about the dangers of drug use and addiction, and rehabilitation for those who request it. Probably make marijuana legal, tax it, but keep it reasonably priced so as not to create an underground demand for it. After all, the raw product, hemp, minus legal problems is so cheap as to be next to free.
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<br>Possesion of most illegal drugs would be a misdemeanor similar to a speeding ticket. However, laws relating to the misuse of intoxicants, whether various drugs or alcohol would be strengthened, with very little leeway for those who endanger others by their choices. Make the costs of bad choices significant enough and certain enough that most people will choose not to make those bad choices, such as DUI. Manufacture or distribution of illegal, that is not government taxed, supplied, approved, etc would be dealt with very harshly as well.
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<br>Finally, make it hugely costly to provide dope for kids. Such as, give or sell to children, first offense, 10 years, no parole. Second offense, death, sentence to be carried out immediately upon conviction, all prosecution witnesses must pass lie detector tests as to veracity. Or, we could skip step one and start with two.......
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<br>I'm sure there are many other areas that require attentiion, and that might make a new system workable, but to any unbiased observer, what we are doing now, does not work, or at least not very well. I'm not at all sure that legalization is a better method, but like prohibition, it could be tried and if it didn't work, we could go back, just as in prohibition. The main obstacle, besides the public's opposition, is there is a huge, and huge is probably an understatement, entrenched bureaucracy that is dependent upon the current system's status quo to support their jobs, etc. It would stagger the imagination if we could really know how many social workers, LEOs, DEAs, FBIs, BATFs, BPs, lawyers, judges, wardens, guards, parole officers, etc. etc. would not be needed if the system was changed, and they know it.
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<br>Might not work, but it sure ain't working now.
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I have made the comparison to us and the Roman Empire so many times it is beyond counting. I almost always get a po po answer. But to paraphrase: "Those who do not learn from history are DOOMED to repeat it"
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<br>'nuff said, I will now retire from my collectable wooden soap box. As the new cardboard ones collapse under my considerable weight and are usless at best.

Wade, I must disagree about drugs being tough to get in prison. My son works in a max security, high risk prisoner only institution here in Florida, drug finds are common everyday occurances.
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<br>These boys have nothing to lose and don't care about any laws. Visitors get caught bringing them in all the time but they still do it, as well as corrupt guards and contract workers. This is one of the reasons my son suffers ulcers and other stress related problems, he is one of the honest ones and pays the price in health problems. I wish he would get out but it's the best paying job around here for him, with good benefit's and he is close to vesting his pension, so he sticks it out.
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<br>Crock of crap, ain't it?

T LEE:
<br> You make a better case for legalization than I do. You state that you never saw anyone killed over a cup of coffee, and you never arrested anyone for overeating or smoking. Simply put, food, coffee, and tobacco are regulated, taxed and distributed by the government. They are also readily available to the public, thus, there is no reason to kill for them. Even alcohol, with all of the problems that it causes (violence, alcoholism, sex with ugly people), is easy to obtain, but gangs haven't killed each other over booze for 80 years.
<br> We're all aware of the damage that drug users and dealers do to our society, but what we are doing currently IS NOT WORKING! The definition of insanity is; to continuously attempt the same thing in the same way, each time expecting a different result. Alcohol Prohibition didn't work. When alcohol was legalized, the bootleggers went out of business. The only thing that we got from Prohibition was the Kennedys. That in itself should be enough to make the argument for, at least, decriminalization.
<br> I'm all for looking at other avenues of control, regulation, or even elimination. I'm just tired of watching our Constitution being used as toilet paper by those in law enforcement and legislation just because they're unwilling to admit that the current strategy has failed.

Sir, you missed my point entirely, it is not because they are legal, it is because they don't take over your life like illegal drugs do, or even legal one's (alcohol and missused prescription drugs).
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<br>As to the Constitutional issues, I agree that the usurption of the Bill of Rights for any reason will not help. But legalizing drugs won't either.
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<br>If there is a crime, there must be a punishment to fit the crime, period. That is the only deterance to a detrement to society, making something legal that undermines the moral fabric of society does not make it go away.
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<br>Were that the case, it would be a good excuse to legalize rape, pedophilia, murder, arson ETC. In fact why not abolish all law and let anarchy reign? By that logic then there would be no crime!

Your comparison of drug legalization to rape, murder etc... is an invalid one. Rape and murder are crimes inflicted upon another person. Drug use is a voluntary crime. No one forces the user into doing drugs anymore than one is forced into smoking or drinking alcohol. At worst, the transaction between buyer and seller is a consensual crime.
<br>Certainly, if one is found under the influence while driving, or being disorderly in public, then the weight of the law should fall upon them. Again, I reiterate, the current strategy is a blatant failure. It's time to look into some new ideas and methods.