Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Express Rifles and Big Bores Only .458 Win Mag vs. .458 Lott - Hornady Manual

So, I've a question. In the 9th Edition of the Hornady Handbook of Cartridge Reloading, the .458 Win Mag has several loads in the 2150 fps category (and even one in the 2200 fps category). This is performance far superior to what has generally been attributed to the round. Furthermore, this puts the cartridge just a smidge beneath the performance level of the .458 Lott (according the manual, as the Lott has several loads listed in the 2150-2200 fps category, and one load in the 2250 fps category).

Each rifle used for working up loads had a 24" barrel, the Win Mag being a Ruger M77 and the Lott a Wiseman Custom. The Win Mag had a 1 in 14" twist, the Lott a 1 in 10" twist. I am not aware of the freebore of either rifle, but the cartridge O.A.L. of the Win Mag was 3.310", and the Lott 3.585" (not quite the .300" difference in case length, but close enough). Each, of course, used the Hornady 500 grain bullet (at first, upon seeing the velocities of the Win Mag, I thought it must have been with the 480 grain DGS or DGX, but I was surprised to find not).

Again, this is performance with the Win Mag which is far in excess of what has traditionally been the norm. Even the A-Square loads, with a 465 grain bullet, struggled to reach this level of velocity. I guess the reason for the post is that the numbers have me scratching my head wondering, "how?".

The last 458 Win that I owned got 2110 FPS with Federal 210 primers and 74 grains of IMR 4895

I talked with Hornady quite abit over their loads and data and they seem to be one of the few companies that compare apples to apples. If both rounds are run at the same pressures then the difference is not as much as the Lott fans like to think.

The 458 Win got a lot of bad press due to a number of factors; mostly involving powder compaction in old rounds that had been kept for years, often decades, in hot climates.
After Jack Lott, who for many years was a fan of the 458, pointed out the problem, every gunwriter decided to pile on without doing any research nor often never having even fired one.

Now, according to our "experts" Jack Lott got tussed by a buff because his 458 failed -- when, if you read his report, he says the rifle was not at fault as he had gut shot the bull, and that he still had absolute faith in the 458.

You will also read that the 458 never reached the 2130fps that they claim ---but if you take time to research the NRA reports of the time they had the indipendent HP White labratories test the round and it did reach a measured 2150fps

And when Jack developed the 458 Lott he claimed that all he was after was an honest 2150fps with no compaction of the powders being used at the time --- which shows he understood the problem was with the ageing of the original powder.

The Lott was, and is, a good design but hundreds of African PH's continued to use and be perfectly happy with the original 458 --- including men like writer and former PH Finn Aagaard, and cullers like Richard Harland and Mike LaGrange who have killed many thousands of elephants with theirs.

I have carried mine here in Alaska for use on our biggest bears and even with the short barrel on my rifle I easily get velocities over 2000fps with 500 gr bullets, which, as Finn Aagaard says - put a big, bloody, red rimmed hole through anything it hits .

The factor on the other side of the question, of course, is that when the .458 Lott was a wildcat, people worked up loads according to traditional high-pressure indicators, which we know now often don't occur until pressure is over 70,000 psi. Once the Lott became a factory round, pressures were kept below 65,000, and suddenly the Lott didn't get 2400 fps with 500-grain bullets anymore.

Thanks guys. Your words make sense, a lot of sense.

Mule Deer,

I load my Lott to 2,300 which gives no pressure signs but is a significant improvement over the .458 Win. I also load 550gr Woodleighs to about 2,100 for a friend who is a PH (Alister Norton in Zambia) and he says they hit like Thor's hammer on buff and swears by them. The .458 Win is capable but I feel the Lott is an improvement. What's not to like?

Just because your load "gives no pressure signs" does not mean it is a safe load. I know a number of shooters, including one African PH and another industry ammo rep, who claim to have managed 2300fps from standard 458 Win reloads with AA2230 powder.

I certainly don't feel the need of 2300 fps with a 500 gr bullet but if I did I think I would simply get a 460 Wby.

I've been handloading for over 30 years, there is no problem getting 2,300 fps with a 500 gr bullet safely from a Lott, many others besides me have done it as well. I know you are a fan of the .458 Win but your post is a bit biased and not sure what your point is.

If you don't get the point of his post and mine after reading both, them good luck.

No offence intended to anyone here, but, I have now handloaded for 45+ years for several handguns and about 150 CF rifles of my own, plus many others belonging to friends.

Evidently, I was considered so precise and trustworthy by the old RCAF WWII "tail gunner" on "Lancs" with 39 missions over Germany, that he asked me when I began to load for his Al Beisen .270 Bee-P-64 and then his Biesen, .300 Bee and he got the sub-moa results he sought with my loads.

I have a fair amount of wilderness experience and also have read about every gun writer published in English from the late 1890s to now and I will flatly state, John and Phil are by far my favourite writers with the sole exception of Bob Hagel. I have found their comments to be "spot on" and having owned a Browning Safari LE-1964 vintage, .458WM, I can say that 2230 works so well in the .458WM, that I have to accept what they are saying here.

I have never been to Africa, have had many friends from there, white "British" people born there who came to BC during the "Mau Mau" and subsequent Soviet-inspired attacks upon the greatest civilizing force in human history and I have been regaled with tales of shooting all the African game for close to 60 years.

My feeling is that I PREFER the .458WM, as it is a "short magnum" which has the same OAL as a "standard" round such as my .338WM or .280Rem. or 9.3x62s do and is thus a bit more "friendly" to ME than the longer Lott. I DO own and shoot both .300 and .375 H&H rifles, have had about a dozen so chambered, but, prefer that "std" bolt throw.

Sooooo, I see JB and .458's points and especially for Grizzly country, I agree. JMHO.

Obviously the 3" .458 Express case exists for a reason...to push 500 grain bullets at 2300-2400 fps, at safe pressures, all the while sticking to the standard belted magnum head size. Beyond this, we've the Dakota, Rigby, Weatherby, etc.

I saw these loads in the Hornady manual. These discrepancies show up all the time. For what ever gremlins or reasons it happens all the time. Look deeper you can find more.

Historically the 458WinMag has had a lot of complaints about factory ammo not making specs and failures in the field. It was recently down graded by WINCHESTER to 2040 fps with 510 gr bullet. Winchester developed and introduced this load and to this day the best they can claim (honestly) is 2040fps.

Norma was recently loading the 458 Win with a 500 grain bullet to 1950 fps. That has been discontinued and Norma no longer lists a 458 Win. Who would buy that?

Norma does list a 550 grain load in 458Lott at 2100 fps and nobody will even consider that in the Win mag. I would propose the 450gr bullet a better direction for the WinMag.

Apples to apples, kinda. Hornady offers 458Win Superformance DG 500 grain bullets making the full 2140fps. Finally! 2013 the 458 Win makes the mark. Superformance ammo.

Hornady lists the 458Lott with same 500 grain bullet and RegularFormance DG load at 2300fps. Regular ammo.

Size Matters.

Kutenay. has a valid point as well. I agree for every person and application bigger is not always better. Although I prefer the Lott, my point is bigger is different. I'd rather shoot a milder loaded Lott to a balls to wall WinMag.

QuickLoad shows an approximate 100fps advantage to the 458Lott in 24" barrels. At maximum 458WinMag speeds (2130fps) the Lott shows 7000psi lower pressure which is important to some.

For me its about fitting the action length you have. No flies on either cartridge. When I owned a 458WinMag I pushed 480gr Woodleighs at a comfortable 2060fps. My 458Lott was closer to 2280fps. My 458AccRel plods along at 2230fps. I owned a Rem700 in 470Capstick that used the standard magnum Rem contour, it was brutal at 2100fps, guy I sold it to touched 2500fps with it ... 'no pressure signs'. Recoil in all when you start stepping above 2100fps gets cumbersome, stepping over 2200fps takes it to a whole other level. The Brits were clever capping their 500gr cartridges to 2100fps and often well below. Likewise Winchester selected a clever design when they released the 458WinMag to market, cant say the designed it as Watt's had both long and short already done ... Jack Lott probably also knew of these cartridges when he designed the 458Lott.
Cheers...
Con

Interesting.
Theory is still the new expertise over experience.
(Not you Con)
John

Serously though, the standard .458 with modern loads and components is better than any previous generation of accumulated data.
For me, the step up is the .460 and then, only for range and versatility and facts being facts, that is questionable as few men could capitalize on that ballistic advantage.
John

Good point, and one many can benefit from considering, IMHO.

Years ago, aged late 30s, I was shooting my various rifles, about a dozen at the time, .338WMs, .375H&H-Brno 602 and whatever small stuff I had, 3-4 times per week at a local Vancouver, BC range. I was running 4000-6000 rounds per annumn,am stocky, big chest, shoulders, very sound at recoil.

So, one day, a guy turns up with a .378Weatherby and seeing me shooting my .375, etc. and after most of a box of ammo and not yet sighted in, asked me to at least get it close for him.

Welllll, WTF, I WAS having NO trouble with maxed 300 gr. bullets at 2650ish and thot, aha, my chance to try a .378.....WELL!!! I got down to it and I DID get it 2" high at 100.....I will NEVER forget THAT experience and I NEVER have shot one again!!!!

So, to me, a .458WM is quite doable and with 400-450 SAFs, one fine rig for North America, I THINK that I could handle a Lott, BUT, I ain't a gonna work on THAT .378 farm, again!

Macho is fine on the 'net, but, when I want to need to drop an animal right now, I also want to be able to handle the rifle chosen to do so and without even a fleeting concern about "kick".

The recoil on the big 3 Weatherby's is substantial. Very few riflemen will have ths ability and discipline to manage them and they must be managed if any reliable accuracy is expected.
John

.378 Weatherby is too much of a good thing, .375 Weatherby is spot on. .458 Lott is a great round, very manageable.

I like our Rem XCR II in 375 Weatherby a lot. That being said, the recoil out of our 7 1/2 lb with scope 375 Weatherby with 300g Partition Weatherby factory loads at 2800 fps is a bit snappy. It's more the recoil velocity than the recoil in ft/lbs I think. Loaded down to 2700 fps, they're just fine. I also have a 500 Jeffery which is in a different recoil class than the 375 Weatherby even in an 11.25 lb rifle (without scope).

I had a 378 Weatherby once...once. It was scoped with a decent piece of Leupold glass and was a real killer. I also had a 460 Weatherby at the same time (open sights). The 378 ran about 9.5 lbs or so (scoped), the 460 around 10.5 lbs. Compared to the 378, the 460 was a kitten behind the trigger (KDF slimline in place on the 460...never shot it without). Kinda wish I'd have kept the 460, but I never really regretted letting the 378 slide as it was, no question, a bit too much of a good thing. In fact, my opinion, the cartridge is pretty useless unless you're really reaching out to touch something really big.