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Huh.. how ironic... here's what I was talking about with halters jwp..

http://blogs.westernhorseman.com/unbranded/2013/05/13/lessons-from-unbranded-heels-and-halters/

No trying to be an ass.. just trying to help you avoid a bad thing.

Mules might be a little smarter, but mostly more cautious. The norm is you show mule something three times,they get it. That does not mean they will want to do it.

I was trying to compare the horses( or mules ) IQ to other farm animals, not humans.

The real world gets very interesting. Particularly these young gals who tell you my horse is the smartest thing there is and it will never do anything to hurt me. Those people get hurt.

I've been around horses all of my life and like Cocadori I don not find them to be dumb. I have owned horses that figured out how to unlock and open gates own their own. They are often smarter than the people that are judging their intelligence. I show my horse 1 time what I want and they remember. Dumb?? Not in the least

I am well aware of these things

I guess we all are entitled to our own opinions. Usually formed from experienced, I know mine are.

not saying one is right one is wrong here...

I just find it hard to draw parallels or conclusions when talking about "smart" animals. Comparisons are one thing but comparisons to what?

Is there a test that could be applied to animals. IQ test?

I find it hard to wrap my head around the humanized concepts and emotions that many give to animals... is it right or fair?

This horse my wife has been working for me. I could easily say he's super smart. He has accepted anything and everything we threw at him with in the first 3 tries.

Is he smart or trusting?

I think this could be an interesting discussion.

Apparently those young'uns have never had to pry a horse's teeth out of their shoulder or admired the print of a horseshoe on their kneecap. I've done both.

I would that she has earned his trust and he is smart

How about this horse

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YIo3ZfA9da0

Mine are definitely formed by my experience and knowledge. I have owned dumb horses, kind sweet horses and mean horses as well as smart horses. Blood lines matter in these regards, that I am convinced of. Some horses are born mean and they die mean, I do not want those

I am down to one mule now. I had to put my old one down a few weeks ago.As mules go, this one is fairly smart and like jwp475,I have owned smarter ones, dumber ones, mean and sweet ones, but in handling and using them, I never forget that they are a dumb animals and treat them with that respect.

About ten years ago, I sold off the few horses I had and kept 4 mules. My life got a lot easier then and all the mules calmed down a lot since they didn't have those mares around keeping them stirred up.

It' is indeed not right to judge any animal's smarts on a human scale. Unfortunately 95% of people do, and that is what gets them in trouble, affixing human traits to animals and then they coast along until something bad happens and it happens fast. I have seen some of those bad things,even ending in death for the human.

It might come from all these movies and TV shows depicting a wild stallion captured and becoming one with some 12-13 year old girl, or all the stories of wild animals depicted as tame creatures that folks can walk up to and pet.

This horse that your wife is working with could have turned out the exact opposite in the hands of a wrong person. That is what is wrong with people watching these Pat Parelli shows. They go out the next day, tie bag on their buggy whip and wonder why the horse goes beserk.

Every horse or mule out there can go either way based on how they are handled. The person who walks into round pen and figures that is a smart horse and then takes shortcuts gets into trouble every time. That is why I classify horses and mules as not real smart. Treat them all like they can hurt you. People will say, that is their prey instincts. Well those instincts can get you in trouble. Heck a pit bull has instincts too, and hundreds of owners say they are really not mean vicious animals but I don't trust them.

My father and grandfather used mules to plow our garden. I have never been much of a mule person myself. I have nothing against them, but I like horses better

I'm the opposite, I figure the only thing a good horse is for is to make a good mule. Nothing against them and I enjoy looking at good horse flesh. I will ride them if it means I have to walk otherwise.

Personally, I have always looked at mules as an anomaly and favored the horse.

Kind of like looking at a mule's mama and saying 'you slept with a WHAT???'

I like the turn this discussion took. I too think people go astray when they try to assign human smarts and emotions to animals.
I have one of those horses right now JWP that is a houdini supreme, but human smart? No.
Also, I do have to back up a little bit. I mentioned a famous packer that does not ride mules to pull his pack strings. From what I gather it has nothing to do with them not making good mounts generally, but that he feels that because of their nature they can be a little slow to get into action if things go south with his strings.
The link to the story about the halter brought back a memory of a similar incident that happened to me. Having gotten back to camp after a long day riding, I tied the little foxtrotter mare I was riding to the highline while I took a quick drink of water. Even though my wife warned me against it, I new I wasn't going to be but a minute.
Well, in that "minute" the little mare reached up to scratch behind her ear, and hooked the trailing end of her shoe over the string halter I had on her. She struggled for a moment then the halter popped off her head. My wife eased off one way and I the other, and just as I reached the other end of the highline the mare took off.
When she hit the end of her lead, the other horse still tied to the highline started running backwards stretching the highline tight to the point that the roping girth I had tied around the tree as a tree saver broke and flew through the air down to where I was standing, hitting me in the forehead,knocking me instantly unconcious.
When I awoke a couple of the girls were holding me down while one of the guys was unwrapping the highline and girth from around my ankles.
Luckily, the little mare had pulled loose and my wife had gotten hold of the other horse before she drug my butt over the mountain:)
Had a bloody mouth full of dirt and thought I was OK, but then started going into shock. Wife hauled me to the hospital 3hrs away, and found out I had a concussion.
She said about every 5 min I would ask her "now where are we going?"

I don't think that animal have human smarts, emotions or process pain the same as humans. I do know that some are a hell of a lot easier to train than others and that is the ones that I want. Call it smarts or what ever. I show the 2 mares in the picture something once and they remember, I call that smarts. I know that if the parents are that way then there is an extremely high probability that the off spring will be as well

That is what I am talking about Byron. These critters can hurt you or themselves with out even meaning too. That is what I refer to as being stupid. I lost a darn good mule when it rolled on a highline and got it's back leg up over the drop line and dislocated it's hip. That mule had been on a highline for 20+ years during hunting seasons. That is why I cautioned about those horses shown with the back foot tie to arope.It can happen any time to any horse or mule.

As far as folks thinking the mule is an anomaly, I find that those who do so mostly have no direct experience of actually working with a mule. Those who have bad experiences did not take the time to find out the big differences between a horse and a mule or got ahold of one that had already been messed up.

I can understand Byron's friend the packer saying what he did about a lead mule as it is entirely true. You cannot force a mule to do something and they have the unfortunate characteristic that they think they have a vote in a lot of matters. Most horseman can't abide that, but it has kept me out of trouble more often than getting me into trouble. I have always lead pack strings, although not big ones, with a mule.

In 40+ years of riding and using the long eared version of equines, I have never known anyone to go back to riding horses after they have ridden a good mule. That is unfortunate for the horsemen who have formulated a prejudicial attitude about them before using them.

Mules , I don't think are not smarter than horse, but the donkey part of the equation evolved from animals that lived in areas where flight was precluded because of mountainous or rocky terrain. The horse was opposite in that it evolved in open country and the flight instinct became prevalent. This is why mules will tend to turn and fight a predator or at least stop and figure something out whereas a horse will mostly turn and flee. That is the response that can get a person hurt.

People that do not train a horse properly before putting them in compromising situation are asking for a train wreck. Also IMHO it is important to bond with your horse and gain their trust. That way they will listen and trust you when they are frightened.

Both horses and mules are animals and not machines

One of the biggest tricks with equines is to desensitize them enough to overcome all of that flight instinct. I used to ride with an ex-rough stock rider. When we rode together, he would say things like-"let's show them the hang glider."

I would encourage people to spend more time with desensitizing. It makes for safer and better crtitters.

Here is a good test of equine smarts. Throw an unusal object like a beach ball in a large turnout with loose horses and mules. Some will stay away from it. The smart ones will have curiosity and come over to investigate. I would pick the ones that carry the ball around in their teeth.

There are horse mules and donkey mules. The horse mules tend to be better performers, and have impulsion, but more flight instinct. I like saddlesore's line about changing sides after experiencing a good mule in the mountains.

I asked working cow people for years about their mule experience. Very often I would hear the same story-"Yeah I rode a mule once doing a big circle. It was ornery and bucked a lot. I never rode a mule again."

I agree that you always need to be aware around livestock to reduce the odds of getting hurt. Riding introduces more variables and sometimes you just cannot anticipate what may come your way. I've seen good horses act in unexpected ways 'cause of the reaction of lessor horses that stirred the flight mentality. If you are reading your animal you are ok most of the time. I cannot agree with calling equines stupid but understand the intent of the phrase. They are acting true to their behavior traits so there is a norm to be expected. Now I have have seen and all too often some down right stupid behavior by people in and around horses.

This thread sure took off in a new direction as soon as Roy Rogers Trigger was mentioned. A lot of good lore has been shared here.