Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Winchester Collectors Question for mod 70 gurus

I am very impressed with the knowledge shown in the comments, which indicate real expertise.

I am NOT an expert, know little enough about 70s and only own 3 or 4 pre-'64s, plus some Classic New Havens, but let me add something from my personal knowledge, going back a few years.

Back in the 1980s, there were original, new in the box pre-'64s being marketed at the gun shows. I've seen tables with as many as a dozen for sale at a time. It was easy enough to accept that as credible at the time, because those dealers were snapping them up from hardware stores and anywhere else that they had been languishing in old inventory. Back in those days, 70s were less in demand since they were a little more pricey than other options, and so it was not so hard to find them unsold in small town stores.

Since those were NIB, complete with hang tags, etc., it was fairly easy to acquire knowledge of what the key identification marks were. I can well imagine that many of those rifles are still untouched in the box and salted away by collectors. It is harder to acquire that knowledge today.

However, note that at that very same time, 30 years ago, 70s were getting more desirable and getting to the stage where they might be dressed up and sold as something they weren't. Want a very rare caliber, like 9mm? Some would pay top dollar. Where money is to be made, there is temptation to create fakes.

Folks, I personally was a guest in a small shop back then where a guy was, uh, "cleaning up" 70s. He had stocks, barrels, you name it, even hang tags and boxes.
He had original roll dies that he had obtained from the Winchester plant. He could replicate the exact shade of dye for the varnish. Now, there was an expert!

What do you think he did with all that? Would I buy a NIB pre-'64 Model 70, especially one like the one here, for $5000 �� on the Internet? Nuff said?

I had a gun shop in western NY state in the early 80's and traveled the gun show circuit on the east coast. There were several big name dealers at that time who were "creating" many of the scarce M/70 variations. Fortunately for collectors most of those dealers are no longer in business, however their handiwork is still out there. A lot of it is good enough to fool the most experienced collectors, therefor when purchasing rare M/70's a provenance or other reliable documentation would be a good idea.

Wood looks genuine with the varnish sinking into grain as old finishes do. Also ebony cap has gapped where it connects to wood as expected. Polish on metal looks almost exactly the same as my '50 Supergrade.

Things I don't like-

Sling stud screws were not clocked from factory AFAIK.

Hang tags used red string on every one I've ever seen.

The wood blocks in the box ive not seen before And they are too bright to be old.

I wouldn't pay big money for a gun with extra screw holes factory or not. It will never be as desirable as one without the holes to most collectors.

Gun is suspicious enough I'm not interested. Especially at caviar prices.

I'm not much of a collector but I have walked away from every pre 64 I have ever seen with a side mount on it that required the drilling of extra holes.

First off, I don't like them;second,they ruin the value;and third I have never heard of one being installed by the factory....not to say it didn't happen but I have never heard of it.Cant recall what Rule says about it but don't care enough to go looking.

I have seen more 375's and 300 Hollands ruined by those things than anything else.

No bigger pre 64 fan out there than me,but I think some of the pricing today is stupid,and intended for suckers.

Nice post Bob. I hate the side mounts and it's a huge detractor when I see one on a model 70. Honestly, the only side mount I could live with would be on a model 71.

I hear ya on the side mounts. This past Monday I dropped in to the local Cabela's and in the Gun Library spotted a 1949 Model 70 in 270 Win,....had it taken out of the show case for a closer look and there it was,....a frigging side mount.......otherwise the rifle was in very good shape sporting an old steel Weaver and the original swivels.

whomever drilled and tapped that recevier saved me a few bucks that day...:-)

I would have loved to have it but the side mount killed the deal before it began.

Same story here....stopped in a LGS about 2 years ago and spotted a M70 in the rack....turns out it was a very nice, pre-war Super Grade 22 Hornet with a Unertl scope that was mounted in some type of side mount. Could not get past the mount and I passed. Obviously, someone else did not think the mount was a big deal as the gun was gone on my next visit.

I'm the opposite on side mounts, provided they are G&Hs on minty guns....bought an unfired 1951 Standard Hornet with one and an absolutely mint 1950 SG .30/06 with them. Got both for considerably under real world value because of the mounts....

To me the presence of a G&H indicates the owner was likely a discriminating rifleman as the G&H was considered by many to be the cat's meow back in the day....

JMO....

The rifle has been reblued as the soft edges on the barrel markings and floorplate show.

It never had a G&H mount as, if properly installed, they were inletted below and behind the wood line and used two screws and 2 pins that were polished flush by G&H and almost impossible to see on the outside. If you looked inside the action, you could see them. The filler screws are also incorrectly spaced for a G&H mount.

The edge on the checkpiece is no where near as crisp as an original.

Faked Model 70s are all over the place, especially carbines in rare calibers.
A major Winchester gun show dealer had many fakes built and got away with it until his gunsmith spilled the beans. Nobody went to jail as nobody wanted to admit they had been conned. The suckers just moved the rifles along to new suckers. The dealer is still in business.

There are far better investments available in classic British bolt actions from firms like Rigby, Westly Richards and Holland than an ordinary bolt action American, somewhat clubby rifle.

The British firms also, generally have, complete records on every rifle built and for a price, can be validated by the builder. Many also believe they are superior as they almost all use/used fine Mauser actions which few consider inferior to the 70.

You notice that no one bid $4400 as real M 70 collectors would never bid on a rifle that is both messed with and probably faked as well.

You old c*cksucker, when are you going to get the hint once and for all and f*cking LEAVE?!!!

No kidding, genius. It was drilled and tapped for a Pachmayr Lo-Swing, as I mentioned previously. Can't you bloody people read?

Even if it HAD been a G&H side mount, the screw holes would be visible when the mount plate (base) is removed from the rifle.

G&H [bleep] up a lot of nice rifles back in the day. They are about as tacky as see thru mounts as far as I'm concerned. However, those can always be tossed (no harm no foul). Unlike G&H side mounts where the only thing being tossed (out the window) is the collector value of the rifle. It is nice to see that someone likes them though. The last one I saw at the gunshow was a nice std rifle chambered in your typical '06 and the guy had it for 3 years before he sold it. His asking price was $500.00 and it probably sold for considerably less..

I can understand a G&H side mount on a pre war but could never figure out why they would do that on a gun that is drilled and tapped for a scope like a post war is.

Scopes were notoriously unreliable back then - even the post-war scopes. People didn't fully trust them. The concept behind the side-mount was easy removal of a faulty scope in order to give access to the backup irons. In the case of the Pachmayr, the scope could be rotated out of the way.

A side-mounted scope could also be removed and reinstalled without a change in zero. That's a bit more difficult with a top-mount.

As disgusting as the side mounts are so is my pre-war SG carbine that has ONE hole in the rear bridge....I can live with it though...

When I was running the GS circuit I always carried the right size screwdrivers, dental mirror, magnifying glass, tape measure and a dummy K Hornet round....those were the days....

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, I suppose, but the assertion that "G&H [bleep] up a lot of rifles back in the day" is just beyond stupid. Furthermore, to equate a finely machined G&H mount with those crappy aluminum "see-thru" mounts meant for rubes and the uninformed is ludicrous. And the very idea that a pre-64 M70 wouldn't bring even $500 due to the presence of a G&H mount is simply unbelieveable. The combined value of the parts is worth that, at least.

Your BS(A) isn't cutting it.

Plain and simple bs coming from your end. When you get a clue come back. Could make for more laughs

Must by why his handle is prime "beef".... grin.

You're both very original. Now go back to your mutual circle jerk.

I'll go on record and say that I'd rather have a G&H "destroyed" rifle than many of the pristine guns that have likely been refinished/rebuilt, some of which I've seen pictures of in this forum.

After nearly fifty years of being around old 70s I can say I've not seen any with the wood that I've seen on some here....a well-known after market stock fellow has been turning out original appearing M70 stocks for some time now....and an equally well-known dealer or two has been selling them to new collectors...

Unless you have the gun in hand the odds are better than even that you're buying a redone, "minty" gun from some of the dealers out there, one of whom recently told me he could not care less when I confronted him about all the bad, rare 70s he had in his stable for sale....