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Joined: Nov 2003
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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Objective comparisons are not facts... Machines are objective, but don't always tell us what will happen in the real world. Exit pupil is a mathematical number which truly is worthless. Like one of our .com friends posted, and I paraphrase: "A brightly lit blob is still a brightly lit blob."
"Only Christ is the fullness of God's revelation." Everyday Hunter
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Joined: Jan 2006
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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despite Ringies 'comparisons', exit pupils do rate a thought. one of the downsides of too much magnification is tiny exit pupils. Yes they do. When folks I've spoken with lack the knowledge of what exit pupil means, I simply tell them, think of a fireman putting out a fire. Would he be better off with a 2 1/2" line or a garden hose.
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 29,383 |
despite Ringies 'comparisons', exit pupils do rate a thought. one of the downsides of too much magnification is tiny exit pupils. Yes they do. When folks I've spoken with lack the knowledge of what exit pupil means, I simply tell them, think of a fireman putting out a fire. Would he be better off with a 2 1/2" line or a garden hose. How dare you insert logic into this conversation.
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Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 298
Campfire Member
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Campfire Member
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 298 |
Objective comparisons are not facts... Machines are objective, but don't always tell us what will happen in the real world. Exit pupil is a mathematical number which truly is worthless. Like one of our .com friends posted, and I paraphrase: "A brightly lit blob is still a brightly lit blob." Ringman, The exit pupil is not a worthless arbitrary mathematical ratio/number but in some sense a number that describes the aperture of the human eye as an optical system. Matching the scope's exit pupil to your eyes pupil maximizes the total light received by your eye and this assumes your eye is a typical eye and your retina's rods/cones can utilize the available light delivered from an increased exit/entrance pupil. Our eyes are atypical but this fact does not invalidate the physics behind the entrance pupil of the average human eye. To your point, an increased pupil might make things brighter but for sure will make things smaller and I will not be the guy that argues against the resolution vs brightness trade, aka "a brightly lit blob is still a brightly lit blob." After all, "a brightly lit blob is still a brightly lit blob..." but also "a high resolution picture is useless when the lights are off..." Aic
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Joined: Jan 2006
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 18,453 |
despite Ringies 'comparisons', exit pupils do rate a thought. one of the downsides of too much magnification is tiny exit pupils. Yes they do. When folks I've spoken with lack the knowledge of what exit pupil means, I simply tell them, think of a fireman putting out a fire. Would he be better off with a 2 1/2" line or a garden hose. How dare you insert logic into this conversation. Well I appreciate your kind words, however, if I may, just state that I wasn't really trying to use logic. I was stating a fact, like the sun is hot, water is wet, fat chicks can be fun...........
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Joined: Jan 2006
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 18,453 |
After all, "a brightly lit blob is still a brightly lit blob..." but also "a high resolution picture is useless when the lights are off..."
Aic
So true.
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Joined: Nov 2003
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 28,876 Likes: 1 |
After all, "a brightly lit blob is still a brightly lit blob..." but also "a high resolution picture is useless when the lights are off... That is a fun argument. My experience and that of my son-in-law shows my Bushnell 4200 with a 40MM objective to last as long as my Swarovski z5 when both are on the same magnification setting. I tested them on the eye charts at 127 yards and the deer antlers at 131 yards. The exit pupil of the z5 on any comparable setting is larger than the 4200 and yet is no better for either of us.
"Only Christ is the fullness of God's revelation." Everyday Hunter
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Joined: Sep 2004
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 29,383 |
After all, "a brightly lit blob is still a brightly lit blob..." but also "a high resolution picture is useless when the lights are off... That is a fun argument. My experience and that of my son-in-law shows my Bushnell 4200 with a 40MM objective to last as long as my Swarovski z5 when both are on the same magnification setting. I tested them on the eye charts at 127 yards and the deer antlers at 131 yards. The exit pupil of the z5 on any comparable setting is larger than the 4200 and yet is no better for either of us. How bad is your eyesight and I don't mean that in a nasty way? Do you have vision problems?
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Joined: Nov 2003
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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How bad is your eyesight and I don't mean that in a nasty way? In a nasty way or a nice way my glasses corrected vision is 20/15 during the day. Do you have vision problems? 1. I am near sighted. 2. The doctor told me on a night vision scale most folks are at fourteen. If a person sees the same in the night as the day he would be a one. If you are at thirty-six you are totally blind in darkness. He told me, "Don't be caught out after dark without a flashlight. You are thirty-two on the scale." The reason I include my son-in-law is because there are some here who try to disparage my comparisons of optics because of the night blindness. I wonder how they think that influences comparisons done during normal day, but they think it because they post it. My son-in-law can see in the night without a flashlight. He is approaching fifty years of age and told me the other day he noticed he can't see quite as well as he used to. I tested him by checking something with a flashlight and then going into the house and requesting him come out and tell me what is over by the big tree about fifty yards out. He got it right. So I guess he can still see O.K. I hope this answers your question without being argumentative.
"Only Christ is the fullness of God's revelation." Everyday Hunter
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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I guess the question arises since if your pupils never get larger than 2mm then why should the exit pupil?
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Feb 2009
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IMO, an exit pupil larger than my eye pupil is much quicker and user friendly. your eye does not have to be PERFECTLY aligned with the axis of the scope. downside is some parallax, which of course can often be ignored unless working on tiny, distant targets.
Guns don't kill people, drivers with cell phones kill people.
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Joined: Nov 2003
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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I guess the question arises since if your pupils never get larger than 2mm then why should the exit pupil? I guess for someone whose pupil never exceeds 2mm then a 2mm exit pupil would be good enough. Mine opens to 5mm in low light. I have no idea what my son-in-law's opens to.
"Only Christ is the fullness of God's revelation." Everyday Hunter
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 44,882 Likes: 10 |
Do you know the details of your night blindness? Is it a lack of appropriate working receptors in your retina?
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Joined: Nov 2003
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Nov 2003
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Do you know the details of your night blindness? Is it a lack of appropriate working receptors in your retina? No. My guess is there are more cones than I need and not enough rods. I find a lot of game by a slight difference in color, but sometimes I see an ear or a tail or part of an antler. Once I found a deer because I noticed the lower portion of the deer's back leg.
"Only Christ is the fullness of God's revelation." Everyday Hunter
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 18,453 |
If your pupils dilate to 5mm at almost age 69, that's pretty good Rich. If it were me, I'd want to know if there was a cure or something to at least slow the process for your vision issue.
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Joined: Sep 2004
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 29,383 |
How bad is your eyesight and I don't mean that in a nasty way? In a nasty way or a nice way my glasses corrected vision is 20/15 during the day. Do you have vision problems? 1. I am near sighted. 2. The doctor told me on a night vision scale most folks are at fourteen. If a person sees the same in the night as the day he would be a one. If you are at thirty-six you are totally blind in darkness. He told me, "Don't be caught out after dark without a flashlight. You are thirty-two on the scale." The reason I include my son-in-law is because there are some here who try to disparage my comparisons of optics because of the night blindness. I wonder how they think that influences comparisons done during normal day, but they think it because they post it. My son-in-law can see in the night without a flashlight. He is approaching fifty years of age and told me the other day he noticed he can't see quite as well as he used to. I tested him by checking something with a flashlight and then going into the house and requesting him come out and tell me what is over by the big tree about fifty yards out. He got it right. So I guess he can still see O.K. I hope this answers your question without being argumentative. How can you evaluate the effectiveness of certain optics in the dark.? Would not your experiences differ from someone that did not have your condition?
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Joined: Nov 2003
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 28,876 Likes: 1 |
How can you evaluate the effectiveness of certain optics in the dark.? There are very few who can evaluate the effectiveness of certain optics in the dark. I can evaluate the effectiveness of certain flashlights in the dark. Just like at all times I carry an Alpen Wings ED 8X20 in a pouch on my belt I carry a Fenix PD32 flashlight in my pocket. That was an upgrade from Klarus XT1C. Its maximum of the four settings is 315 lumens. It lights the pump house 127 yards away. Would not your experiences differ from someone that did not have your condition? Only in the early evening. Normal folks might see. When it's totally dark most folks can see. I met two guys who can see in the dark without a flashlight.
"Only Christ is the fullness of God's revelation." Everyday Hunter
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Joined: Jan 2006
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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Rich, have you ever had any type of LASIK eye surgery ?
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Joined: Nov 2003
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Nov 2003
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Rich, have you ever had any type of LASIK eye surgery ? No. What is it?
"Only Christ is the fullness of God's revelation." Everyday Hunter
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Joined: Jan 2006
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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Laser eye surgery. I asked because I've heard that a lot of people who have had laser surgery loose quite a bit of their night vision for some reason. Sorry if that was a personal question.
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