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Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 841
Campfire Regular
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OP
Campfire Regular
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 841 |
It�s time to replace the central AC and furnace. Both are still working at this time but are close to 30 years old and not efficient. The house is approximately 1,800 square feet under AC. One of the first discussions my wife and I had regarded changing the propane furnace to electrical heat with heat pump. We discarded this notion pretty fast due to the high cost of electricity and the lower cost and more comfort of propane heat.
The existing furnace is a down flow propane fired furnace made by RHEEM, the compressor is a 4 ton RHEEM. The existing unit does not do an adequate job keeping the house cool during the summer.
I have several quotes from reputable dealers touting their wares, one is an American Standard. The price for these models is higher than anyone else.
Another company is quoting 5 ton York 13 SEER for $6,628.00 and a 5 ton York 14.25 SEER for $7,128.00 installed.
The third quote is 4 ton Lennox 16 SEER for $6,789.00, or 4 ton 13 SEER for $6,133.20 installed. I am going to call Mr. Lennox back Monday and ask for him to quote a 5 ton unit so we can compare them properly, though he told my wife his 4 ton unit would perform like a 4 ton unit. If this were so it would be rated as a 5 ton unit. I want Apples to Apples comparison.
All have 10 year parts and compressor warranty, with 1 year labor warranty.
Does anyone on this board have advice as to which maker is better than others? Ducts are rigid galvanized piping under the crawl space of the pier and beam house. The inside unit is mounted in a closet centrally located in the house; the ducts have been checked for leakage and sealed where leakage was found within the last 5 years.
Any knowledge, experience with these units would be appreciated.
Joel
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Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 4,220
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Oct 2008
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4tons for 1800 square feet? Sounds like a lot. As far as br�nd goes, I doubt one is noticeably better than the other. A new unit will be hands down more efficient than your old unit.
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Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 8,073
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 8,073 |
Go with the high Seer unit. Had a new 16 Seer unit installed. Cut my elec. bill in 1/2. Mine has a 2 speed fan and compressor . Hasbeen
hasbeen
(Better a has been than a never was!)
NRA Patron member
Try to live your life where the preacher doesn't have to lie at your funeral
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 47,231 Likes: 8
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 47,231 Likes: 8 |
i paid just under 5000 to have a 4 ton 14 ser train installed 5 yrs ago. it has worked flawlessly. i also had a 2 ton goodman installed when i inclosed the garage and added a room. it has worked well also, not sure what it would of cost as i traded out labor to have it installed.
God bless Texas-----------------------
Old 300
I will remain what i am until the day I die- A HUNTER......Sitting Bull
Its not how you pick the booger..
but where you put it !!
Roger V Hunter
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Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 1,206
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Oct 2011
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One thing to look at is the BTUs of heat and cooling for each unit. You will see that some 4 ton units produce as much as others 5 ton units.
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 57,494 |
I thought a ton of coolign was X amount of BTUs period?
Re brands, local guy here did york only. We went through 2-3 on the farm, in short time, IE they did NOT last. They were afforable though. But not when they didn't last 2-3 years.
Carrier has still been my choice if I have a choice.
Seer, we all had ancient units around 8-10 SEER.... the 2 houses left now have 20ish SEER 2 speed units. The electrical bill portion for the AC only during the summer has basically been cut in half.
I would not go less than 16-18 seer if I had a choice, and prefer the 20-22 so far.
As noted electricity will be like gas, it will only ever go up in price.
FWIW we have heat pump heat, but I don't recall that we've ever used it. We heat the bit thats needed each fall with wood.
R50 attic insulation helps prove that we can get a norther here and never even fire the wood stove up. Old R19 crud that was in there, was not nearly as efficient but I digress
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
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Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 11,920
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 11,920 |
Have used a Trane for 20 years so far.
Has worked well with no problems.
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Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 236
Campfire Member
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Campfire Member
Joined: Jun 2005
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WG, I am building a new house in Arizona, it is 1500 SF we put a total electric RHEEM on it, 3.5 ton with a heat strip for the winter as heat pumps are good to cool but when it gets real cold they don't do so good. We had the heat strip installed, if the tempitures gets to cold, there is a switch at the thermostat so you only use it when you need it for cold weather. I live about 30 miles from a small town, the guy that put in our unit is 30 miles away so maintenance was also a factor, and there is a Rheem parts dealer in that town. It sounds like you had a Rheem for 30 years and it worked ok so maybe that would be a good one. Cost was $6500.00 and that included all the duct work on our new build and installation. Cost of our unit is about $2200.00 on the internet that doesn't include installation or duct work. You can do a search on the internet for the units you are looking at and find out what the cost of the units are, might help in your decision. I have been told to always add .5 ton to any unit to make sure it is enough for the hot temperatures, that's what we did as most of the bids we got were for a 3 ton unit. I also upgraded our insulation to help we have R22 in the walls R38 in the attic and R30 in the floor above the livable part of the house, our 1500 SF house sits on a 1500 SF garage.
Good luck.
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 3,168
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Apr 2008
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It�s time to replace the central AC and furnace. Both are still working at this time but are close to 30 years old and not efficient. The house is approximately 1,800 square feet under AC. One of the first discussions my wife and I had regarded changing the propane furnace to electrical heat with heat pump. We discarded this notion pretty fast due to the high cost of electricity and the lower cost and more comfort of propane heat.
The existing furnace is a down flow propane fired furnace made by RHEEM, the compressor is a 4 ton RHEEM. The existing unit does not do an adequate job keeping the house cool during the summer.
I have several quotes from reputable dealers touting their wares, one is an American Standard. The price for these models is higher than anyone else.
Another company is quoting 5 ton York 13 SEER for $6,628.00 and a 5 ton York 14.25 SEER for $7,128.00 installed.
The third quote is 4 ton Lennox 16 SEER for $6,789.00, or 4 ton 13 SEER for $6,133.20 installed. I am going to call Mr. Lennox back Monday and ask for him to quote a 5 ton unit so we can compare them properly, though he told my wife his 4 ton unit would perform like a 4 ton unit. If this were so it would be rated as a 5 ton unit. I want Apples to Apples comparison.
All have 10 year parts and compressor warranty, with 1 year labor warranty.
Does anyone on this board have advice as to which maker is better than others? Ducts are rigid galvanized piping under the crawl space of the pier and beam house. The inside unit is mounted in a closet centrally located in the house; the ducts have been checked for leakage and sealed where leakage was found within the last 5 years.
Any knowledge, experience with these units would be appreciated.
Joel We bought an American Standard (made by Trane) AC/heat pump and compressor 5 years ago to the day. The original installer had told me that the switch from R-22 to R-410A freon had been a disaster for many mfgs., including AS and Trane due to the 50 to 70% pressure increase. I was told my unit was of newer design with all the bugs worked out. Long story short, we just had the indoor coil assembly replaced due to a freon leak. We had purchased an extended warranty and all parts and labor were covered. Otherwise we would have been looking at a $1,800 bill. Make sure your installer is reputable, buy an extended warranty if available, and stick with the installer to maintain your unit. Google r-410a, problems, and the mfg. of your choice for consumer feedback. You may have to drill down some, most of the stuff that pops up first is bought and paid for.
"Knowledge is good"
� Emil Faber
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 11,400
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 11,400 |
Some general info that may or may not be helpful to somebody at some point-
A ton of refrigeration is 12,000 btu/hr, the amount of energy needed to melt a ton of ice in one hour.. A 4 ton is a 4 ton is a 4 ton. If a manufacturer says otherwise, they're misrepresenting themselves or their competitors. If you look at the model number of a unit it will usually start with how many thousand BTU's (starts in 36 it is a 3 ton, 48 is a 4 ton, etc).
My sample of one heat pump system, it sucked. The house never felt warm even if it was. Have a propane system on new house, love it.
It doesn't take much monthly savings to get the payback to pay for a higher efficiency unit.
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Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 3,927
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 3,927 |
One ton of capacity equals 12,000 Btu/h (also one Btu/h is equal to 0.293 watts so...One ton = 3.516 Kilowatts) The website is: http://www.fsec.ucf.edu/ratings/e_terms.htm
Keep your gun-hand ready and your eyes peeled.
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Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 26,337
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 26,337 |
I went w Trane two years ago..air and propane furnace. well satisfied.
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 57,494
Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 57,494 |
Be careful RE oversizing, thats not good for the house or the unit from all that I"ve read.
A bit to cover what the typical engineer thinks is heat abut doesn't live in Texas is ok, too much is not good.
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
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Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 4,237
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Oct 2006
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We went through the same thing last year about this time. About the same size house (1800 +/- SF) and a 20 year old Rheem gas furnace and A/C setup. Had three or four quotes, all different brands, all within shouting distance of each other. Ended up going with a high efficency York system, primarily because of past experience which had been good. I really don't know if there is a whit of difference from one brand to the next as long as it is from a "recognizeable/reputable" manufacturer and service and parts can be had locally. We had had our windows replaced and the house resided a couple months earlier, but the level of comfort in the home after installation was complete was immediate. Just got our electric bill the other day and we used about 2/3 of the KWH this year vs last year for the same time period (1000 KWH vs 1500 KWH) and the temps were very close to the same. We've been happy so far. YMMV
Someday I hope to be the person my dogs think I am . . .
The only true cost of having a dog is its death.
Someone once said "a nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves."
Shiloh Sharps . . . there is no substitute.
NRA Endowment Member
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Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 3,927
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Federal regs have, since 2006, required a SEER of at least 13. If you live in a hot place like Texas, it's probably worth paying for a SEER of 16.
Keep your gun-hand ready and your eyes peeled.
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Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 125
Campfire Member
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Campfire Member
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 125 |
Another important thing to think about is how much insulation do you have in your attic and walls. That will help determine the efficiency of any unit.
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 2,194
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 2,194 |
I would suggest that you watch what you buy in terms of how long the unit has been in production and/or is it still in current production. We moved into a "new to us" house in May 2010 that was 2 years old. The unit was a Trane that was 2 years old. Well, in late June 2010 the 2 year old Trane developed a leak in the evaporator coil that required the coil be replaced. While the coil was replaced under warranty, Trane (in Tyler, Texas) had stopped manufacturing that coil/unit and had to have it "built for us". The HVAC contractor received the new coil from Trane in late July
Long story short, after about 4 weeks and 2-3 service calls for which we paid ther refrigerant & labor, the coil was replaced "under warranty" for an additional $700 for refrigerant & labor. I don't know that it was all their fault but I will NEVER purchase/own another Trane unit. Good luck to you!
NRA Member
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 14,326
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 14,326 |
Putting a large multi-speed unit in as a replacement for your old unit will definitely save on your power consumption.
Replacement parts and maintenance cost will go up quite a bit when needed. But if replacing the entire package, take a good look at the way it's installed and whether it can benefit from being installed differently...
Had a relative that had an installation that put the furnace in the garage in the front of the house, and had the condenser some 60' away installed on the far opposite side of the house in direct sunlight most of the day, and in the dog run. Bad installation all the way around.
Dogs pissing on the condenser is no good!
Phil
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 57,494
Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 57,494 |
Federal regs have, since 2006, required a SEER of at least 13. If you live in a hot place like Texas, it's probably worth paying for a SEER of 16. 16 vs 13 once upon a time we didn't see that much difference in the savings fuel wise. 12 vs 21 yes you could see a big savings. FWIW. 16 is sstill better than 13 as is R8 duct vs R6. Although lots of areas of Texas have no enforceable SEER rating code.
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
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Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 228
Campfire Member
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Campfire Member
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 228 |
TRANE is hands down the longest lasting unit for residential applications; nothing else comes close.
The salesman estimator should crunch some numbers for you based on insulation, windows, drafts, etc and come up with a proper size unit. At 1800 feet I am guessing 4 tons is too much honestly. You have to get it right because if it is oversized you will not dehumdifiy the house properly due to short run times. You can over size the indoor/fan-coil but not the outdoor unit. Carrier/Bryant is the only second choice that I would consider.
Trane, Carrier, Bryant, York are Air Conditioning companies. Rheem Ruud and a lot of others are just plumbing supply house cheap brands. Sometimes they work OK...
There is a time... to refrain from embracing
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