|
|
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,967 Likes: 5
Campfire 'Bwana
|
OP
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,967 Likes: 5 |
First off I do not buy that deer are tougher to stop than humans so no that is not obvious, second a drug up individual is proven to be extremely difficult to stop.
41magfan adequate means under any and all conditions not special primo conditions
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,967 Likes: 5
Campfire 'Bwana
|
|
OP
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,967 Likes: 5 |
Whitworth, I'm not a fan of the .380, but in answer to your question, one would think you'd be getting a lot closer to the human antagonist than you would to the deer. There isn't so much difference between the .380 and the 9mm or the .38 Special to make me stand up and advocate one over the other in every situation.
I will say, all the technical arguments aside, accurate energy delivered on target is the most important factor in selecting a defensive round. The 10mm (which I don't own) is probably the best semi-auto round for self defense, but my choice is, was and will always be the .45acp. One only needs to shoot it on reactive targets side by side with the .380 or 9mm to see that even with shorter barrels, it delivers more mass/energy and that's the key.
Still, even a drugged up hood will drop to a .380 delivered to the bridge of the nose or a couple to the sternum. The rather smallish pistols that are chambered in the 380 make such shot placement much more difficult in my experience I prefer the 45 Super to even the 10mm ![[Linked Image]](http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d62/jwp475/DSC01574_zpsdfbbc044.jpg) jwp475..... what is the difference between the 45 super and the 45 acp with +P ammo? Thanks Roy About a hundred FPS or so The Underwood 230 grain Bonded hollow points that I have chrono'ed out of my 1911 at 1130 FPS
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,967 Likes: 5
Campfire 'Bwana
|
|
OP
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,967 Likes: 5 |
.
Second, Do you carry your full size 45 everywhere, every time? I tried several different carry systems for several years and couldn't.
Fourth, I live in an incredibly safe town. If I lived in a larger city, I would likely find a way to carry the Glock 100% of the time. It would just be inconvenient in that I would have to change my summer attire. The answer to number is yes. I also live in what one would describe as a safe area, none the less we had an idiot a few years ago shoot people with a 12 gauge as he drove up the highway. I also had my 45 that day as well one never ever knows what they will encounter
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 14,653
Campfire Outfitter
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 14,653 |
I've shot exactly one deer with a .380, which it sounds like is one more than everyone else in this thread combined.
It was a 100#ish doe that tried to jump a wrought iron fence and got hamstrung. I shot her once, directly on too of her head from about three inches away. The bullet fully mushroomed, penetrated the skull, brain and tongue. I recovered it inside the hide below the bottom jaw. So I know a 90 grain Hydrashok will penetrate a skull and about two inches of soft tissue, from contact distance. Take it for what it's worth to you.
your flippant remarks which you so adeptly sling
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 3,168
Campfire Tracker
|
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 3,168 |
First off I do not buy that deer are tougher to stop than humans so no that is not obvious, second a drug up individual is proven to be extremely difficult to stop.
41magfan adequate means under any and all conditions not special primo conditions
Really? How many people have you seen run with a leg shot off? How many people have you seen run 100yds after being shot through the lungs with a 30/06 Ballistic Tip? I would love to carry my .45 1911 everywhere but it's just not practical to carry all the time as it's just to big to conceal with all clothing. In those cases I carry either a 9mm HK P7 or if an even smaller gun is needed to carry to remain concealed I will carry my Seacamp .32acp. The .32 is by no means my first choice but it's better carrying a little gun than no gun. If you don't think a 32 (especially with top quality ammo) is dangerous would you like to be shot with one?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,967 Likes: 5
Campfire 'Bwana
|
|
OP
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,967 Likes: 5 |
First off I do not buy that deer are tougher to stop than humans so no that is not obvious, second a drug up individual is proven to be extremely difficult to stop.
41magfan adequate means under any and all conditions not special primo conditions
Really? How many people have you seen run with a leg shot off? How many people have you seen run 100yds after being shot through the lungs with a 30/06 Ballistic Tip? I would love to carry my .45 1911 everywhere but it's just not practical to carry all the time as it's just to big to conceal with all clothing. In those cases I carry either a 9mm HK P7 or if an even smaller gun is needed to carry to remain concealed I will carry my Seacamp .32acp. The .32 is by no means my first choice but it's better carrying a little gun than no gun. If you don't think a 32 (especially with top quality ammo) is dangerous would you like to be shot with one? You can read about people on the battle field continue to fight with horrendous wounds and multiple wounds. An animal can't shoot you after being wounded but a violent advisory can. IN the famous FBI shoot out in Miami Pratt was hit early in the fire fight by agent Jerry Dove in the right biceps the bullet exited the biceps and entered the chest cavity in line with the heart but did not have enough penetration to reach the heart. Doctors claim that had the bullet reached the heart 30 to 40 seconds is the most that Partt could have continued to remain up right. Even though the wound was a non survivable wound (took out an artery in the bicep) and no FBI agent was hit at this time. Pratt continued to fight another 4 1/2 minutes killing to agents and wounding 4 Agent Dove was shooting a 9mm +P 115 grain Silver Tips, A 380 is even close to this and this was way short on penetration
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,967 Likes: 5
Campfire 'Bwana
|
|
OP
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,967 Likes: 5 |
Medal Of Honor Recipient
*MAXAM, LARRY LEONARD
Rank and Organization: Corporal, U.S. Marine Corps, Company D, 1st Battalion, 4th Marines, 3d Marine Division (Rein), FMF
Place and Date: Cam Lo District, Quang Tri province, Republic of Vietnam, 2 February 1968
Citation: For conspicuous gallantry and intrepidity at the risk of his life above and beyond the call of duty while serving as a fire team leader with Company D. The Cam Lo District Headquarters came under extremely heavy rocket, artillery, mortar, and recoilless rifle fire from a numerically superior enemy force, destroying a portion of the defensive perimeter. Cpl. Maxam, observing the enemy massing for an assault into the compound across the remaining defensive wire, instructed his assistant fire team leader to take charge of the fire team, and unhesitatingly proceeded to the weakened section of the perimeter. Completely exposed to the concentrated enemy fire, he sustained multiple fragmentation wounds from exploding grenades as he ran to an abandoned machine gun position. Reaching the emplacement, he grasped the machine gun and commenced to deliver effective fire on the advancing enemy. As the enemy directed maximum firepower against the determined marine, Cpl. Maxam's position received a direct hit from a rocket propelled grenade, knocking him backwards and inflicting severe fragmentation wounds to his face and right eye. Although momentarily stunned and in intense pain, Cpl. Maxam courageously resumed his firing position and subsequently was struck again by small-arms fire. With resolute determination, he gallantly continued to deliver intense machine gun fire, causing the enemy to retreat through the defensive wire to positions of cover. In a desperate attempt to silence his weapon, the North Vietnamese threw hand grenades and directed recoilless rifle fire against him inflicting 2 additional wounds. Too weak to reload his machine gun, Cpl. Maxam fell to a prone position and valiantly continued to deliver effective fire with his rifle. After 11/2 hours, during which he was hit repeatedly by fragments from exploding grenades and concentrated small-arms fire, he succumbed to his wounds, having successfully defended nearly half of the perimeter single-handedly. Cpl. Maxam's aggressive fighting spirit, inspiring valor and selfless devotion to duty reflected great credit upon himself and the Marine Corps and upheld the highest traditions of the U.S. Naval Service. He gallantly gave his life for his country.[font:Arial Black][/font]
I don't believe that any deer ever created could deliver that amount of devastation that Cpl Leonard did despite multiple wounds
Last edited by jwp475; 06/30/13.
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 13,827 Likes: 1
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 13,827 Likes: 1 |
For years, the gun I carried was a vintage Beretta 25 ACP pistol, my only small handgun.
In more recent years I have acquired more handguns than I have fingers and toes to shoot them with - and very recently I found myself involved in a situation where I felt it prudent to be armed - So I bought a pocket holster for my Ruger LCR which happened to be handy . I even wondered about myself NOT taking my CZ 40P, or something more appropriate at the time - but I didn't.
As things turned out - there was no need for a handgun - and I even forgot it was in the cargo pocket of the old trousers I was wearing. No real point to be made here - but a gun is still a gun, regardless of caliber.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 14,653
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 14,653 |
Really? How many people have you seen run with a leg shot off? How many people have you seen run 100yds after being shot through the lungs with a 30/06 Ballistic Tip?
If you don't think a 32 (especially with top quality ammo) is dangerous would you like to be shot with one? Both of those are pretty stupid arguments. I haven't seen people react the same way to being shot as deer but I don't live in a state where between me and my kids we get to shoot 20 people a year, so that's not a fair comparison. And I don't think 9 volt batteries are particularly dangerous, but I wouldn't like to lick one at the moment. "Dangerous" and "hurt" are relative. So take the argument in context and spare us the ridiculousness.
your flippant remarks which you so adeptly sling
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 10,597 Likes: 1
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 10,597 Likes: 1 |
In the late 80�s, in north Louisiana, I double-lunged a spike deer with a .243. It ran about 50 yards leaving a good trail of blood. When I got to it, there was some breath streaming from its nostrils. Being a city boy by birth, my backup gun that day was a relatively new Seecamp .32 ACP filled with the recommended 60 grain Winchester Silvertips. Rather than put a .243 through the neck, I decided to do a coup de grace with the Seecamp. I held the gun about 2 inches away from the neck and shot. It was instantaneously lights out for the deer. When I skinned the deer, I found a nice round lead-colored circle that matched precisely the mouth profile of the hollow point. There were pieces of metal on the outside of the spinal cord and embedded in the hide. The bullet did not penetrate the vertebrae at all. I guess a .243 to the lungs plus a non-penetrating .32 to the neck works. That day, I decided that the .32 ACP was not a viable solution to any self defense situation.
"Don't believe everything you see on the Internet" - Abraham Lincoln
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 910
Campfire Regular
|
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 910 |
I used to have a little Belgian made Browning .380 auto that was a cop's backup gun originally. I never shot a deer with it, but I put holes in several sharks up to maybe 200 pounds at boat side with it. Also shot a couple of alligator gar with it, but it would not penetrate the skull of a 120 pounder I caught. Carried it in a shoulder holster while surf fishing at night after getting in a scary situation one night without a gun (no sharks involved), and had it with me several other times when it made me feel a little safer. It fit in my front pocket and was completely concealed. Never had to fire it for defense, which is the best kind of defense gun.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 18,334 Likes: 1
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 18,334 Likes: 1 |
I simply asked if anyone personally knew of a situation where a 380 had failed to preserve them after they had been accosted by a criminal. No one is arguing that the 380 is as good as a 45, if possible I would rather have a 45 in a pinch but sometimes you cannot carry a big gun.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 3,168
Campfire Tracker
|
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 3,168 |
Medal Of Honor Recipient
*MAXAM, LARRY LEONARD
Rank and Organization: Corporal, U.S. Marine Corps, Company D, 1st Battalion, 4th Marines, 3d Marine Division (Rein), FMF
Place and Date: Cam Lo District, Quang Tri province, Republic of Vietnam, 2 February 1968
Citation: For conspicuous gallantry and intrepidity at the risk of his life above and beyond the call of duty while serving as a fire team leader with Company D. The Cam Lo District Headquarters came under extremely heavy rocket, artillery, mortar, and recoilless rifle fire from a numerically superior enemy force, destroying a portion of the defensive perimeter. Cpl. Maxam, observing the enemy massing for an assault into the compound across the remaining defensive wire, instructed his assistant fire team leader to take charge of the fire team, and unhesitatingly proceeded to the weakened section of the perimeter. Completely exposed to the concentrated enemy fire, he sustained multiple fragmentation wounds from exploding grenades as he ran to an abandoned machine gun position. Reaching the emplacement, he grasped the machine gun and commenced to deliver effective fire on the advancing enemy. As the enemy directed maximum firepower against the determined marine, Cpl. Maxam's position received a direct hit from a rocket propelled grenade, knocking him backwards and inflicting severe fragmentation wounds to his face and right eye. Although momentarily stunned and in intense pain, Cpl. Maxam courageously resumed his firing position and subsequently was struck again by small-arms fire. With resolute determination, he gallantly continued to deliver intense machine gun fire, causing the enemy to retreat through the defensive wire to positions of cover. In a desperate attempt to silence his weapon, the North Vietnamese threw hand grenades and directed recoilless rifle fire against him inflicting 2 additional wounds. Too weak to reload his machine gun, Cpl. Maxam fell to a prone position and valiantly continued to deliver effective fire with his rifle. After 11/2 hours, during which he was hit repeatedly by fragments from exploding grenades and concentrated small-arms fire, he succumbed to his wounds, having successfully defended nearly half of the perimeter single-handedly. Cpl. Maxam's aggressive fighting spirit, inspiring valor and selfless devotion to duty reflected great credit upon himself and the Marine Corps and upheld the highest traditions of the U.S. Naval Service. He gallantly gave his life for his country.[font:Arial Black][/font]
I don't believe that any deer ever created could deliver that amount of devastation that Cpl Leonard did despite multiple wounds
How many of those woulds were created by an expanding bullet that went through both lungs? Being wounded and fighting on is a whole lot different than a shot through the lungs and heart and living 30 seconds to a minute and being able to run in that time. How much blood can a deer lose versus how much can a person lose? People are frail creatures compared to most all wild animals.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 46,261 Likes: 2
Campfire 'Bwana
|
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 46,261 Likes: 2 |
Anyone feel these calibers are adequate for 90 to 150 pound deer?
Haven't used a 380, but a 45 ACP with a 185 Barnes TAC-XP at 1200 fps done a fine job on a small 5pt meat buck last fall, 18 yard shot in the left shoulder, little buck took off carrying that left leg, trotted about 30 yards, stopped, and fell over. Bullet exited the ribs on the offside too, surprised the heck outta me. Gunner There are a number of bullets for the 45 ACP that work very well on deer andf hogs. I know this because I have killed them with the 45 I hadn't seen the other thread and didn't know this was a spinoff. Gunner
Trump Won!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,967 Likes: 5
Campfire 'Bwana
|
|
OP
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,967 Likes: 5 |
Medal Of Honor Recipient
*MAXAM, LARRY LEONARD
Rank and Organization: Corporal, U.S. Marine Corps, Company D, 1st Battalion, 4th Marines, 3d Marine Division (Rein), FMF
Place and Date: Cam Lo District, Quang Tri province, Republic of Vietnam, 2 February 1968
Citation: For conspicuous gallantry and intrepidity at the risk of his life above and beyond the call of duty while serving as a fire team leader with Company D. The Cam Lo District Headquarters came under extremely heavy rocket, artillery, mortar, and recoilless rifle fire from a numerically superior enemy force, destroying a portion of the defensive perimeter. Cpl. Maxam, observing the enemy massing for an assault into the compound across the remaining defensive wire, instructed his assistant fire team leader to take charge of the fire team, and unhesitatingly proceeded to the weakened section of the perimeter. Completely exposed to the concentrated enemy fire, he sustained multiple fragmentation wounds from exploding grenades as he ran to an abandoned machine gun position. Reaching the emplacement, he grasped the machine gun and commenced to deliver effective fire on the advancing enemy. As the enemy directed maximum firepower against the determined marine, Cpl. Maxam's position received a direct hit from a rocket propelled grenade, knocking him backwards and inflicting severe fragmentation wounds to his face and right eye. Although momentarily stunned and in intense pain, Cpl. Maxam courageously resumed his firing position and subsequently was struck again by small-arms fire. With resolute determination, he gallantly continued to deliver intense machine gun fire, causing the enemy to retreat through the defensive wire to positions of cover. In a desperate attempt to silence his weapon, the North Vietnamese threw hand grenades and directed recoilless rifle fire against him inflicting 2 additional wounds. Too weak to reload his machine gun, Cpl. Maxam fell to a prone position and valiantly continued to deliver effective fire with his rifle. After 11/2 hours, during which he was hit repeatedly by fragments from exploding grenades and concentrated small-arms fire, he succumbed to his wounds, having successfully defended nearly half of the perimeter single-handedly. Cpl. Maxam's aggressive fighting spirit, inspiring valor and selfless devotion to duty reflected great credit upon himself and the Marine Corps and upheld the highest traditions of the U.S. Naval Service. He gallantly gave his life for his country.[font:Arial Black][/font]
I don't believe that any deer ever created could deliver that amount of devastation that Cpl Leonard did despite multiple wounds
How many of those woulds were created by an expanding bullet that went through both lungs? Being wounded and fighting on is a whole lot different than a shot through the lungs and heart and living 30 seconds to a minute and being able to run in that time. How much blood can a deer lose versus how much can a person lose? People are frail creatures compared to most all wild animals. No it is not different in the 30 to 40 seconds a determined adversary can shoot and kill you is the point. 30 to 40 seconds if the heart is taken out, other lethal wounds can take much longer. Pratt remained upright and killed 2 FBI agents and wounded 4 after sustaining non survivable wound because the bullet simply did not penetrate enough to reach the heart after severing an main vein
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 33,758 Likes: 7
Campfire 'Bwana
|
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 33,758 Likes: 7 |
I have one pheasant downed with a Baby Browning 25 ACP whilst shot out of my best bud's Father's '64 VW Bug in high school on Victoria Island in the Sacramento Delta. A 20 or so yard shot and DRT. Probably doesn't qualify?
Conduct is the best proof of character.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 2,143
Campfire Regular
|
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 2,143 |
I have one pheasant downed with a Baby Browning 25 ACP whilst shot out of my best bud's Father's '64 VW Bug in high school on Victoria Island in the Sacramento Delta. A 20 or so yard shot and DRT. Probably doesn't qualify? Sure it does, Ed. 
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 14,653
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 14,653 |
How much blood can a deer lose versus how much can a person lose? I dunno, how much?
your flippant remarks which you so adeptly sling
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 18,334 Likes: 1
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 18,334 Likes: 1 |
I finished a deer with a head shot from a 38 smith titanium with a 2 inch barrel, shooting federal hydroshocks in the mid 90's, I was not impressed with it. I cannot see how a .380 could be any worse.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 24,669 Likes: 1
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 24,669 Likes: 1 |
The idea of the pocket guns (Mouse Guns) is an alternative to being unarmed. So with that in mind, let�s take a poll�
For all of those who would choose being unarmed to carrying a .32 or .380 ACP, please chime in.
|
|
|
|
|
544 members (12344mag, 007FJ, 10gaugemag, 160user, 1badf350, 1936M71, 56 invisible),
2,366
guests, and
1,280
robots. |
|
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
|
Forums81
Topics1,193,043
Posts18,500,820
Members73,987
| |
Most Online11,491
Jul 7th, 2023
|
|
|
|
![[Linked Image]](http://s33.photobucket.com/user/jwp475/media/DSC01574_zpsdfbbc044.jpg.html)
