Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Express Rifles and Big Bores Only Doublr rifle cartridge question?

Spot on Bfly!

Another double rifle option from Louisiana by some good folks.

DF

http://www.clarkcustomguns.com/DblRifle.html

You should.
Doubles are like aspirins, you just can't improve on them. Even Krieghoff's attempt with the 500/416 (still a rimmed cartridge) can't compete in performance or popularity with the standard and 100 plus year old NE cartridges. The strongest action out there is the Dumas designed Verney-Carron Triple lock and even they will talk you out of a modern (rimmed) cartrige for a double, not only for the pressures but more importantly the extraction issues that could be a combination of pressure and a rimless case. I am and have always been a velocity "freak" for hunting, but doubles are an entirely different universe and just not designed for what you are seeking.

I'd be happy with a 38-55 if it was stainless for under $1500. With lasers and CNC machines we should be able to have it.

Those Clark Custom Guns look like a class act for the price. I have no idea from first hand , just saying they 'look' good. I would have to agree with the general sentiment that if Clark can buy actions from CZ and custom build a nice doubles for $5000. I would expect that CZ could offer a reasonable mass produced product for 1/2 that price.

Now that is not to satisy every oddball or new & improved fettish. A basic model classic chambered double. No stainless or plastic god forbid, please.

Stainless cerracoated black would be fine. Properly funded I would be interested in one of the Clarks, probably a 30-40. Seems I always deer hunt in the rain and snow. I would have a hard time getting myself to lug a $5k beauty into a cedar swamp in freezing rain.

yea, my practical hunting guns dont look anything like my fantasy play toys. To be honest, I pretty much have one hunting rifle a 7mm-08 for 90% rifle hunting. A double (If I could afford one) would be just another fun gun.

The only time I had a rust problem was Florida. And even there it was sitting in my trunk it rusted to heck. Real bad- real fast. I never had a gun actually rust while I was carrying it around. I see you are in Maine. My problem around here has been rain turn to ice on my gun. Optics have been more a foul weather issue, not wood or blue steel. I do sometimes resort to an iron sited lever or even an H&R single is foul weather. Both blue steel and wood, seem to handle rain ok.

Come to think of it, I have an H&R scoped 20ga for Mass deer with a synthetic stock. I though a nice black stock looked better than cheesy birch factory stock and lighter too. I may have started with a youth model. I forget now. Anyway, nothing is cast in stone. Except I dont have any rambo black, banana clip rattatattat guns. They dont both me, I just dont want one.

LOL, same here Fourbore, an old Ruger Hawkeye S/S in 358 Winchester gets the nod for 90% of my centerfire rifle hunting duty, the purty ones sure fun to hunt with though, weather permitting of course.

Gunner

My Hawkeye RSI 308 has become my go to gun, with a 45-70 stainless Guide Gun with peeps for the nasty weather days. Been totin' ta 12ga over 7x57R too, closest I have to a double rifle. 3" slug or buckshot and a 150 Partition is fairly formidable.

Go get a bolt gun. They reached the pinnacle of development in 1898.

A 416 Rigby in a magnum Mauser - perfect.

Is my newfangled 7mm-08 any better than a 7x57? Heck No. I got former based on my choice of rifle, not based on any ballistic advantages.

Several builders, in my memory, did offer 458Win and 375beltedH&H in quality doubles. I am sure one could still be special ordered. I expect the resale value would be right in the toilet - so; the buyer had better really want one.

Things have sure changed during my lifetime. Today anyone with a few bucks can have any reasonable firearm they desire. Now, go online and try and build a consensus, that is whole different story. Short of wining an online debate, anyone can go as modern or old fashioned as they want.

God? Do you remember all the whinny and crying back in the 1960's and 70's about lack of any DG 40 cal? How many available now (factory loaded) 6, 8 or 10? Dare I say: "too many"?

Now that you bring it up, I, too have wondered why cartridges for my .416 Rigby are so much more expensive than cartridges for a .416 Remington. Also, .470 N.E ammunition is more than twice as expensive as .50 BMG. 28 gauge shotshells cost a lot more than 12 gauge shells. Why?

I would think its due to economies of scale on what can be built off the basic case. .416 Remington basic brass can be turned into any of the belted mags prior to final forming into 416 Remington, so the tooling costs are spread over a much greater number of cases. Not much else you can turn 416 rugby basic brass into that's commercially popular. As to 50 bmg vs the ne calibers I'm sure that me brass would be cheaper if the military bought millions of .470 nitro cases a year. It's a lot cheaper to run off some extra cases for the civilian market when you have the military purchases paying most of the sunk costs for producing a product line

This.

That is exactly right. In any production process, at least based on my working for various manufacturing companies over the years, volume allows cost reductions.

That is why various military cartridges, such as 7 mm, 30-06, 308, 556, etc., to name a few, have become so popular in the civilian market. Also, there is usually availability of surplus cartridges at attractive prices.

Take .470 nitro express as a contrast. First offered by Joseph Lang around 1906, based on the .500 3-1/4" case, it has been perhaps the most popular big bore double cartridge because Lang released it to the trade, but think how many rifles have been made for it in the past 100 years.

Yes, Rigby favored it and made a bunch, but so what? There simply are not that many.

Even if you count all of the other flanged cartridges based on the .500 3-1/4" case, including my 500/450, we are not talking about big volumes � not even remotely comparable to the .404 Jeffrey or 9.3x62, which are not found in that many gun stores.

Thus the properly-designed cartridges specific to the double rifles are always going to be more expensive than those more suitable for bolt-action rifles for two reasons: there have never been that many double rifles and there is not high enough volume demand for the ammo to justify production cost savings.

I've been through Jim Bell's plant in Illinois, where he made obsolete cartridge brass. He had acquired military surplus extrusion machinery for pennies on the dollar. In fact, I seem to recall that he may have bought it by the pound. Nonetheless, his production costs were high because of the low demand, even though he supplied some of the big name rifle makers. Those realities are never going to change.

Others have mentioned the significant advantage in extraction of the old nitro express cases, due to the flange and taper. Many have tried rimless cases and most have concluded that the cost advantage is outweighed by dependability.

One final thing that I haven't seen mentioned, but which double owners understand.
They are not designed for indefinite use at high pressures. Over time, the action will loosen and "come off the face." Think about it. If that is so, do you really want to use a high pressure round like a .416 Rem Mag?

Yes, rifles can be tightened up again. My 500/450 built in 1905 was. But think about the cost and whether it balances with the puny savings in choosing a less reliable, higher pressure cartridge that was not designed for doubles, but rather for stronger bolt actions.

A bold rifle will not extract a case unless an extractor fits in the cartridge groove. Sometimes the extractor must ride over the case to load it.

What's wrong with applying the same principle (and same dimensions of extractors) to a double? Why wouldn't it be equally reliable?

No, you can buy modern guns and ammo. Consider that what you consider as an alternative, the bolt rifle, are (mostly) based on the 98 Mauser which itself is a 115 year old design. You can make a double run on rimless cases, but it's not ideal. Same as you can make a bolt rifle feed rimmed cases, but it's not right either. You can pick up a sheet of plywood with a Porsche or road race a Dodge Dually, but neither is realty suited for that job.

And I've never compared prices for 416 Rigby or 416 Remington ammo. I handload.