Home Forums Hunting & Shooting General Big Game When hunting became shooting

I think treestands are BS, but I'm sure that don't bother Gene any and it don't bother me any if he uses them.

It's going to be interesting here (Oregon) to see how our game commission handles the rangefinding/compensating scopes that are becoming vogue.

Presently no electronics are allowed our arms or bows. Obviously that is not the case though in many states, and with a few minutes of schooling one can be turned into an adept long range shooter.

Bump

Growing up a an Iowa farm kid in the 50�s, I experienced a lot of what Gene writes about. There weren�t many deer around back then (nowadays it is not uncommon to see more deer in one day than I did as a kid) and although there were no deer hunters in my family my brothers and I killed many a sparrow and crow, rabbit , squirrel and pigeon, with dirt clods to arrows to pellets to .22�s. I remember getting up before dawn (something I still do) to do chores and run the traps along the creek before the school bus came.

It wasn�t until after moving to Colorado that I started big game hunting, getting my first centerfire rifle, a 7mm RM in 1982 and my first animal, a spike elk, around 1984. Back then I didn�t hunt deer or antelope and, although I like antelope a lot for table fare (best of all, in fact), I�m still ambivalent or worse about deer which I consider to be targets of opportunity.

Daughter #2, who doesn�t hunt herself, has accompanied me on numerous hunts with her husband. Daughter #1 will be going on her first hunt this October when we head to Wyoming for antelope. Between my son-in-law, Daughter #1 and myself we�ll have 5 doe tags to fill and 2 days to fill them. A few weeks later Daughter #2, son-in-law and I will head out to hunt elk. Once again we have tags for the females, although I�ll buy an over-the-counter bull tag just in case.

For our hunts I use every advantage I can, including exploring the territories before we head out with topo and land ownership maps, talking to wildlife officers and extensive use of Google Earth. We will practice out to the limits of my local range, 600 yards even though my longest shot ever was last year when I took my cow at 400. In the field we�ll make extensive use of binoculars and my laser range finder. Although we�ll be wearing blaze orange, we�ll try to minimize our scent by rubbing sage into our clothes and hats and working the wind and we�ll try to minimize both our motion and noise. Normal stuff.

When it comes time to shoot we�ll be using handloads carefully developed for accuracy and rifle scopes with ballistic compensating reticles. If time and distance permit or require, the range will be verified by laser. After the shot pictures will be taken with digital cameras and the spot marked using satellites in space and handheld GPS recievers. We don�t use horses or ATVs so meat will be packed out on our backs or using a two-wheel game cart, depending on the situation and terrain. Soon after I get home the pictures will be posted online for distant family members and friends to see. The elk hunt will receive an length write-up that gets emailed to family members. At night we�ll sleep in the comfort of a trailer, replete with running water, a flush toilet, gas stove and oven, and electric lights. During the day we�ll ride around in a late model 4x4 F150 4x4 with automatic transmission and hubs, comfy seats, electric windows and a good heater. Many is the time I�ve listened to the Broncos while watching a piece of land, including last year when I got my buck within a few minutes of the game�s end.

We�ll hunt public land for the most part but I�ve found a rancher in WY that promised to let us on to shoot does, the more the better and he promised to introduce us to a neighboring rancher that feels the same. Although no trespass fees will be involved, I plan to compensate the ranchers in ways yet to be determined. The elk hunt will be public land only.

Times change and I have only two regrets in life. One is that I never got to go big game hunting with my uncle, the other is that I never went on a fly-in fishing trip to Canada with my father-in-law, although our families were up there together on two occasions.

There is a wheelbarrow full of antlers and horns in my barn. Long ago I stopped trying to add more to the pile. My goal while hunting is to enjoy the outdoors and enjoy the company of friends. Filling the freezer is a nice bonus and benefits the family as a whole. Whenever the freezers are full the excess gets donated to the needy, usually the Denver Rescue Mission. Although some people turn up their noses at taking does and cows, I�m quite happy to do so and I�m quite happy to use modern technology in the process.


{edited to add...}


"...my brothers and I killed many a sparrow and crow, rabbit , squirrel and pigeon, with dirt clods to arrows to pellets to .22�s."

And BB's by the thousands. Got two sparrows on the wing with my Daisy and later a pheasant on the wing with my Ithaca Model 49 .22.

Gene�s attitude reminds me of the resistance to in-line muzzleloaders by Colorado�s erstwhile black powder shooter�s organization (I forget the name) back in the late 1990�s. I had purchased a Remington M700ML inline and the next year the DOW outlawed it during �primitive season� in large part due to pressure from the muzzleloading organization. The claims were that the new inlines gave inline shooters a big advantage and the inlines didn�t have the right �look and feel�.
I won�t argue the �look and feel� issue � the inlines DO look and feel different. There is, however, very little advantage of inlines over the traditional �side hammer� designs that were newly required. I wrote several letters to the DOW about the topic including one where I provided documented evidence of recommended loads from the 1880�s that were hotter than those recommended by Remington for the M700ML. In an case, scopes were prohibited so there was no advantage in sighting mechanisms.

In accordance with the new laws I purchased a traditional side-hammer muzzleloader and in my letters to the DOW threatened to paint it red, white and blue with yellow racing stripes, mount fiber-optic sights, swap the trigger for a two-stage target trigger, replace the hammer with one made of titanium, replace the blued barrel with fluted stainless and make other changes that would definitely affect the �look and feel� that the muzzleloader organization thought was so important. There was also some discussion of the apparel I would wear, including blue jeans, Hawaiian shirts and blaze orange which, IIRC, was allowed but not required at the time.

The DOW argued they never considered the �look and feel� issue but I had proof from their web site which detailed minutes from their meetings in which it was discussed. They came to their senses the next year and once again allowed inlines. Bunch of damn liars and fools as far as I was concerned.

The technology of hunting is killing hunting in my opinion.

And hunting has become much more of a shooting sport than it ever was. If folks feel that's a good thing, well, be happy, but I'm not one of them.

+1

A couple of years ago I mentioned during a debate on another forum that I hoped hunting never became "an engineering problem." The guy I was debating with wasn't really offended, just puzzled, since he'd never really learned how to hunt before getting into long-range shooting. He'd learned his "hunting" from other shooters at the target range, who apparently never mentioned anything besides mil or MOA scope adjustments, which electronic wind-gauge to buy, what ballistic program to put in their cellphone, etc.

Apparently he'd never heard a word about actually HUNTING. Instead he understood the entire process as spotting some animal two ridges over and then figuring out how to whack it.

Just the other day I was talking to a guy about hunting and he immediately asked 'How many tee stands do you have setup?' to which I replied 'I don't have any, I hunt from the ground'. He looked at me like I had 3 heads.

That's far from the first time I've had that look. Apparently there are a bunch of folks that haven't a clue how to hunt unless perched in a tree.

One of your best posts, John, well thought and well said.

It will likely draw some flames from the defensive souls among long rangers, but most will be merely puzzled.

"Killing hunting" ??

There is no question that there is much more of a discrepancy in the level of shooting skill among hunters now than in the past, but how that is �killing hunting� ?

Learning to shoot well takes a lot of time and effort and some are not willing to put in that time and effort. The same can be said for physical conditioning.

Is it unfair that some guys here are able to travel further and faster than other hunters? It sure does up the success rate to be able to run up the mountain.



John,

In a way one could say hunting has always been an �engineering problem�. Somebody invented the spear then the atlatl then the bow and so on. We humans are always trying to get more reach.

That being said I have sure seen some animal killing that sure didn�t look like hunting to me. Some of it at long range but also some at conventional range.

I think the antler obsession is much more of a problem for hunting than LR shooting, but then a case could be made that I am a little biased in this discussion.

John, I don't really expect you to understand I guess. Your gig is whacking from two ridges over. Fine if you like it.

Personally, I don't care to and yet, I'm pretty sure I could w/o half the effort and money I spend to hunt like I do. It isn't about what "can do" that defines hunting for a lot of folks.

But be that as it may hunting is and will continue to be an "engineering problem" for a lot of folks and that will drive the game into the ground eventually for several reasons. The biggest one being that non-hunting folks will simply get fed up with it.

Ah well, I'll keep hunting my way, you keep hunting yours. With luck, hunting will last at least a little longer than me. Probably.

+1 to Steelhead and Mule Deer. Great posts. I'd love to see some real world stats on the misses/wounded animals vs kills in the long range crowd's world. We'll never know, but from the small sampling of hunters I see in our camps, 90% of them have no business shooting past 200 yards.

I really like the article in the OP. I agree with most of it.

The long range hunting discussion here is where I find some interesting arguments. I think most of the bias against killing something at "long range" is due to pure ignorance, laziness in developing the shooting part of hunting's skill, and lack of knowledge as to what is possible.

I've hunted everything I could since the day I was able to draw a sling shot. I bow hunt now and have a January mule deer tag this year. I've rifle hunted through it all. I know how to hunt to get close and I certainly know what hunting is. Shooting is a part of hunting and will always be a part of hunting.

With every weapon I shot or hunted with whether a sling shot, bow, shotgun or rifle, I wanted to be able to use it to its fullest capability to put something in the bag. After all, if I couldn't use it with the skill necessary to wring out its capablility, then I was the weak link in the system.

If a guy can learn to drive a shotgun properly, some incredibly long shots on targets and game can be routine. Same goes with steering a rifle. Most big game cartridges have more than enough steam to kill big game at 1000 yards. Why not learn how to use the tool to do what it's certainly capable?

Kinda like the Range Rovers I see around town that have never been in 4-wheel drive or even on a dirt road.

When I first set out to be as good as my equipment, I shot to 1000 yards, had great data and was ready for a prized mule deer hunt. I wanted to be able to kill something nice if I saw it and couldn't close the gap. Ended up killing a nice buck at 25 yards.

I've never gone out purpose to only take long shot, but if it's the only one I have, I know I can close the deal two ridges over.

Well said.

Great post 4100!

It's hard to make a good argument against anything you wrote.
I grew up in Illinois and remember my grandpa( born in 1893) saying he saw his first WT in 1958. The quest for trophys is a big part of the problem!!

One of the most interesting parts of the Spanish philospher Jose Ortega y Gasset's famous essay "Meditations on Hunting" is where he suggests that any time sport hunters (and he was one) use their technology to bypass the normal defensive instincts of game animals, then what they do ceases to be hunting.

Ortega y Gasset was a very avid hunter, and wrote "Meditations on Hunting" in the 1930's.

This shoulda been posted in the Bowhunting section...oh well...the Wensel Brothers are true characters without a doubt. And the PBS are a bunch of snobs! The MBA video is nothing more than a bunch of guys patting each other on the back. So what! Long range or short range hunting with bow or rifle is still hunting. I of course have my own beliefs and need not push them on anybody. I don't care if you hunt with a smoke pole, a stick and a string or a two pound trigger in your rifle with a 40x variable scope. The point here is you can't do it in France and in some other countries. We are lucky that our forefathers did some work to make it what it is today. The land of the free! You can hang from tree stands if you want heck if you want to be real risky..ride a bike without a helmet! I did it..crashed and I'm still here to tell about it. Things are gonna change, products are gonna be developed. Don't mean you gotta buy them and use them. And if long range killing ain't for you...you don't have to do it. I say each man or women for themselves.

I do believe though EVERYBODY should serve their country for a minimum of 4 years! And if not you have no right to scream for what's right or wrong. Because you have not contributed to OUR FREEDOM'S!

Mule Deer, that quote from Ortega y Gasset could encompass a lot of the gear we hunters use nowadays. And not just the longrange rifle stuff. mtmuley

You may be correct but every time I read that question I wonder if the number of lost and wounded animals isn't higher from bow, crossbow and handgun hunting than it is for long range rifle hunting. But somehow folks see bow hunting as right and a just pursuit and long range rifle hunting as less ethical and less effective. The modern bow hunter tends to be equipped with more techno gadgets than most rifle hunters it seems. I think if the gadget increases your effectiveness, go for it. Just my thoughts, not trying to butt heads with anybody.

Bob