Just curious. Whenever they're mentioned on most forums folks really do not like them. Just some guys that left Bushmaster to start a new company ... why is that bad. Seriously don't know the story .... is there products or history?
Don't know why people get so upset at other peoples purchases. Looks like they make a decent rifle for the money. Some people think rifles can't fire unless they have milspec this and milspec that.
Last edited by CBMJR; 08/11/13.
John 8:12 "I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life."
After what Remington did to Marlin, and Bushmaster I would not own a new Bushmaster, DPMS, Remington or any of the other Cerebus junk. If I didn't build my own AR I would buy a Windham.
There is no retreat but in submission and slavery!
Lets face it. Todays CNC stuff... there isn't much brand wise that isn't a copy of all the rest.
Of course if I had to put my life on the line with one, IE LEO or MIL and had a choice, I might do a lot more research, just to see what the odds where, but of all brands my wife and I have run over the years, from Colt to the cheapest EA, every last one is still up and running just fine.
In fact it was teh colt that had the loosest trigger/hammer pin holes and teh USMC swaged and.... grrr.... knurled my lower/pins to solve the problem.
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
I own two Smith & Wesson M&P 15s, a TS and a MOE and I own two Noveske carbines.
The only reason I never considered a Windham is because literally ALL of their various models feature 1-9" twist barrels. I just didn't see the need to buy a rifle that might be marginal with the heavier 5.56 bullets.
I realize my Noveskes with their 1-7" is maybe a little crazy, but they both shoot the 77-grain Hornady bullets REALLY, REALLY well and, believe it or not, 40-grain Nosler Ballistic Tips shoot five-shot groups consistently under one-inch.
Maybe the 1-9" will shoot the heavys well .... but I know for a fact that my 1-7s ABSOLUTELY DO.
Ain't worth spending the money on Windham and taking the chance.
I like Windham and own two. Also know a few guys that work there. Like any other business when you sell out you have a no compete clause. Once the clause was fulfilled the former owner was asked by several former employees and some other insiders to start up a (new) company Windham. I don't see what there isn't to like about their products.
Bushmaster sucked and people are afraid Windham will be more of the same.
Also, with companies like Colt and BCM providing known quality products for just over a grand, why take a chance on a product that hasn't proven itself yet?
I haven't heard of any good or bad reports coming out of serious training classes. For Windham anyway. Haven't heard any good reports from the same crowd about Bushmaster. So people probably make the correlation.
If it were my money, I'd not buy a Windham until I see some serious testing of one from multiple sources. Don't know what one goes for, but can't be much less than a known quality product
Why does anyone still roll out the 1x9 twist on ARs? All of my fast twisted barrels have handled light bullets just fine. Is it more expensive/difficult to put a 1x7 or 1x8 on a barrel?
Hunt hard, kill clean, waste nothing and offer no apologies.
"In rifle work, group size is of some interest...but it is well to remember that a rifleman does not shoot groups, he shoots shots." Jeff Cooper
I bought a bush back in the first AWB, no flashhider and the barrel was not installed properly, the rear sight had to be run all the way to the right to get on paper at 25.
they should have pick a better name for their product and spent more money on marketing . In today business world perception and marketing makes all the difference . The average person who buys a AR only goes by what info his buddy has giving him or a magazine add . The reason the big brands names are the first choice for first time buyers is their exhaustive marketing adds .
A Doe walks out of the woods today and says, that is the last time I'm going to do that for Two Bucks.
Bushmaster sucked and people are afraid Windham will be more of the same.
Also, with companies like Colt and BCM providing known quality products for just over a grand, why take a chance on a product that hasn't proven itself yet?
I haven't heard of any good or bad reports coming out of serious training classes. For Windham anyway. Haven't heard any good reports from the same crowd about Bushmaster. So people probably make the correlation.
If it were my money, I'd not buy a Windham until I see some serious testing of one from multiple sources. Don't know what one goes for, but can't be much less than a known quality product
How many sucky bushmasters have you owned over the years and what were their problems?
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
Why does anyone still roll out the 1x9 twist on ARs? All of my fast twisted barrels have handled light bullets just fine. Is it more expensive/difficult to put a 1x7 or 1x8 on a barrel?
Because most folks don't shoot 75 or heavier is my pure guess.
And I think thats backed up quite well by the simple answer to this question.
At Walmart, Academy, etc... how many boxes of 223 ammo do you find with anything heavier than a 69 in it on the shelves?
True. But, my 1/7's shoot 55gr. just as well as the 1/9's I owned in the past. Unless its a small game varmint rig, I don't see the desire for a barrel to shoot lighter bullets than 55gr. My 16" 1/7 BCM barrel even shoots 45gr Vmax great.
John 8:12 "I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life."
Actually I remember someone doing a test on the common twist rates of 5.56 AR rifles a few months ago. Guns and Ammo, Rifle Shooter, or Shooting Times I think did it.
Their conclusion after sending thousands of rounds downrange was pretty simple. Unless you are shooting 77gr bullets or heavier, you don't need a 1-7 twist. But, if varmit hunting with 40-60gr bullets is your game, the 1-8 or 1-9 were the better choice. They did not see the same accuracy level with lighter bullets with the 1-7" barrels as the others. For what it's worth, RRA National Match rifles have 1-8" barrels. I don't hear of many complaints about their accuracy.
Personally, I see no need to shoot any bullet heavier than 63 grs in a 5.56 unless you are trying to make it a long range gun. If I need to shoot over 300yds with my LAR-15, I'll get a bigger gun shooting a REAL cartridge, not a poodle shooter cartridge.
As far as Windam guns, they are fine if all you're looking for is a blasting gun. They have lousy triggers, average quality barrels, and priced about $200 too much for what they deliver. IMO, they are a $600-700gun, not a $1000 gun like commonly seen here in NY before AR guns were outlawed from sale.
Last edited by dmsbandit; 08/12/13.
I don't drink or Smoke. I spend my money on gunpowder and gasoline.
Their conclusion after sending thousands of rounds downrange was pretty simple. Unless you are shooting 77gr bullets or heavier, you don't need a 1-7 twist. But, if varmit hunting with 40-60gr bullets is your game, the 1-8 or 1-9 were the better choice. They did not see the same accuracy level with lighter bullets with the 1-7" barrels as the others. For what it's worth, RRA National Match rifles have 1-8" barrels. I don't hear of many complaints about their accuracy.
A 1in9 will not reliably stabilize 77gr Sierras, if it does, it is on the ragged edge of not doing so.
NOBODY needs a 1 in 7 to shoot anything that'll feed out of an AR mag, except tracers, so it tracers are your thing, you need a 1 in 7, 'cause that is why the Army uses it.
My test of one 1 in 8 18in Montana AR barrel shows the same accuracy (3/4moa) with 50hp's or 77's. YMMV
Their conclusion after sending thousands of rounds downrange was pretty simple. Unless you are shooting 77gr bullets or heavier, you don't need a 1-7 twist. But, if varmit hunting with 40-60gr bullets is your game, the 1-8 or 1-9 were the better choice. They did not see the same accuracy level with lighter bullets with the 1-7" barrels as the others. For what it's worth, RRA National Match rifles have 1-8" barrels. I don't hear of many complaints about their accuracy.
A 1in9 will not reliably stabilize 77gr Sierras, if it does, it is on the ragged edge of not doing so.
NOBODY needs a 1 in 7 to shoot anything that'll feed out of an AR mag, except tracers, so it tracers are your thing, you need a 1 in 7, 'cause that is why the Army uses it.
My test of one 1 in 8 18in Montana AR barrel shows the same accuracy (3/4moa) with 50hp's or 77's. YMMV
I may have been wrong on the 77gr bullet, but it was a 70 something grain bullet where the cut-off was. Maybe 72grs?
I don't drink or Smoke. I spend my money on gunpowder and gasoline.
Their conclusion after sending thousands of rounds downrange was pretty simple. Unless you are shooting 77gr bullets or heavier, you don't need a 1-7 twist. But, if varmit hunting with 40-60gr bullets is your game, the 1-8 or 1-9 were the better choice. They did not see the same accuracy level with lighter bullets with the 1-7" barrels as the others. For what it's worth, RRA National Match rifles have 1-8" barrels. I don't hear of many complaints about their accuracy.
A 1in9 will not reliably stabilize 77gr Sierras, if it does, it is on the ragged edge of not doing so.
NOBODY needs a 1 in 7 to shoot anything that'll feed out of an AR mag, except tracers, so it tracers are your thing, you need a 1 in 7, 'cause that is why the Army uses it.
My test of one 1 in 8 18in Montana AR barrel shows the same accuracy (3/4moa) with 50hp's or 77's. YMMV
I may have been wrong on the 77gr bullet, but it was a 70 something grain bullet where the cut-off was. Maybe 72grs?
Depends more on the shape of the bullet than the weight. Either way, with 1 in 9's the general cut off is around 69grs.
John 8:12 "I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life."
you don't need a 7 or 8 twist 9 is plenty good. heavy bullets suck in the AR. if you need to shoot that far grab a 243
I do need at least an 8 twist to reliably shoot the bullets I load out of my AR. They are quite accurate also. Is a .223 the ideal long range caliber? No, but it can be effective and accurate with the right bullet. The 1/9 twist does not usually work well with the long match bullets required to push the limits of the .223 in the AR platform. Its not always as easy as grabbing a .243.
John 8:12 "I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life."
but rost, if you were not restricted to a "service" round, would you still choose a 5.56 over a 6mm or larger diameter bullet in an AR-15 platform? I don't know alot about it, but the 6.5 grendal or some 6mm wildcat would seem supperior at longer ranges than the 5.56.
personally, I'd go to an AR-10 platform if I was shooting 1000yds in "service" type rifles. I know the 260 is damned hard to beat in an AR-10 style gun at LONG range.
I don't drink or Smoke. I spend my money on gunpowder and gasoline.
You can always find something thats a little bit better than what you have. .22lr<.223<.308<.260<.300WM<.338 Lapua...etc..... Being proficient with what you have is the key.
Last edited by CBMJR; 08/13/13.
John 8:12 "I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life."
but rost, if you were not restricted to a "service" round, would you still choose a 5.56 over a 6mm or larger diameter bullet in an AR-15 platform? I don't know alot about it, but the 6.5 grendal or some 6mm wildcat would seem supperior at longer ranges than the 5.56.
personally, I'd go to an AR-10 platform if I was shooting 1000yds in "service" type rifles. I know the 260 is damned hard to beat in an AR-10 style gun at LONG range.
Went AWAY from the M14 at 1000 to the AR15 in a service rifle if that says anything.
Yes you can always go a different route, but where does one stop?
Point was/is, the 223 is a very functional round.
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
but rost, if you were not restricted to a "service" round, would you still choose a 5.56 over a 6mm or larger diameter bullet in an AR-15 platform? I don't know alot about it, but the 6.5 grendal or some 6mm wildcat would seem supperior at longer ranges than the 5.56.
personally, I'd go to an AR-10 platform if I was shooting 1000yds in "service" type rifles. I know the 260 is damned hard to beat in an AR-10 style gun at LONG range.
Went AWAY from the M14 at 1000 to the AR15 in a service rifle if that says anything.
Yes you can always go a different route, but where does one stop?
Point was/is, the 223 is a very functional round.
I can understand getting away from the 308 in the M14. recoil propably gets to be an issue, and added cost too. Have you ever played around with a 6.5 or 6mm in the AR ?
I don't drink or Smoke. I spend my money on gunpowder and gasoline.
Both work fine too IMHO. Just don't underestimate the 223 is all I'm generally saying, its bigger than it looks with teh right bullets. Drive a 90 to 2750 or so with a bc in the low 500s... they ain't shabby.
The M14 had no issues on recoil. 308 simply doesn't kick enough that you cna't get used to it. It was an accuracy issue with them, and then a sights issue. Perfect sights didn't exist. Accuracy you could get to, often at 3500 bucks or so give or take. Component cost was an issue when shooitng 20,000 rounds a year. In fact when shooting the M14 we could not afford 20,000 rounds a year.
But we are way off topic by now. Happens often though. Grins.
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
On topic, I thought the concept of reviving a local buisiness in a small town and keeping families employed was a decent move. I grew up in town where the local sawmill was the buisiness, when it closed, so did many other things.
As far as quality, Windham is a seperate company to me from Bushmaster, and the woes of old. Looked at their rifle on the shelf, haven't shot or bought one yet. Nothing jumped out as watch-out, or wow-out. I've owned several BMs over the years, never seemed to want to hang onto them.
If you shoot a rifle like a Bushmaster or Windham hard, in enough numbers to generate meaningful data points, you'll find that they fail much sooner than finer rifles, like Colt, Noveske, etc. I've seen this time and again when sharing the range with others at shooting classes.
I hunt with my AR's so I have 1-7 twisted guns and shoot 75 grain Swift bonded bullets. I have not shot as much this year as last as it been raining all the time but in general XM193 will shoot in 1-9 or faster and all about the same accuracy, handloads in 40 grain-75 grain in all my guns can shoot MOA or better even with chromed lined barrels, I had a bush would not do that again, all of the hobby guns are 1-9 I think.
I admit prejudice and won't buy a bush, RRA, Olympic, CORE, S&W, PSA, Whindham, nor even an over priced Noveske with a cheap FN barrel. I have no need for a larger caliber AR in Georgia, and heavy 22 bullets are deadly, then the next day I can buy 1000 practice rounds for $500 and dozens of magazines that fit it.
You can talk yourself into anything, let your wallet be your guide, for the money and Resale value your better off spending $1100 on a Colt than a Windham.
I hunt with my AR's so I have 1-7 twisted guns and shoot 75 grain Swift bonded bullets. I have not shot as much this year as last as it been raining all the time but in general XM193 will shoot in 1-9 or faster and all about the same accuracy, handloads in 40 grain-75 grain in all my guns can shoot MOA or better even with chromed lined barrels, I had a bush would not do that again, all of the hobby guns are 1-9 I think.
I admit prejudice and won't buy a bush, RRA, Olympic, CORE, S&W, PSA, Whindham, nor even an over priced Noveske with a cheap FN barrel. I have no need for a larger caliber AR in Georgia, and heavy 22 bullets are deadly, then the next day I can buy 1000 practice rounds for $500 and dozens of magazines that fit it.
You can talk yourself into anything, let your wallet be your guide, for the money and Resale value your better off spending $1100 on a Colt than a Windham.
The only colt you're going to get for $1100 is a broken or worn out one. I'll put my $850 LAR-15 up against any Colt. I'd have to do ALOT of shooting to wear out 2-3 RRA guns for the price of one Colt.
Last edited by dmsbandit; 08/27/13.
I don't drink or Smoke. I spend my money on gunpowder and gasoline.
Cuomo is an asshat, no doubt about it. You folks got screwed over royally by him and his BS law. Sure hope it can be overturned some day. And I agree, I've got a 14 year old $750 Bushmaster that still shoots just fine.
I hunt with my AR's so I have 1-7 twisted guns and shoot 75 grain Swift bonded bullets. I have not shot as much this year as last as it been raining all the time but in general XM193 will shoot in 1-9 or faster and all about the same accuracy, handloads in 40 grain-75 grain in all my guns can shoot MOA or better even with chromed lined barrels, I had a bush would not do that again, all of the hobby guns are 1-9 I think.
I admit prejudice and won't buy a bush, RRA, Olympic, CORE, S&W, PSA, Whindham, nor even an over priced Noveske with a cheap FN barrel. I have no need for a larger caliber AR in Georgia, and heavy 22 bullets are deadly, then the next day I can buy 1000 practice rounds for $500 and dozens of magazines that fit it.
You can talk yourself into anything, let your wallet be your guide, for the money and Resale value your better off spending $1100 on a Colt than a Windham.
The only colt you're going to get for $1100 is a broken or worn out one. I'll put my $850 LAR-15 up against any Colt. I'd have to do ALOT of shooting to wear out 2-3 RRA guns for the price of one Colt.
I now understand your frustration with you living in NY. Here in GA with $1154.34 you can walk out of Walmart with a brand new 6920 any day, every day. I would not turn down a free RRA or bushmaster but I would sell it for $500 if I got a free one, I would not want to cheat anyone by selling one for more than it was worth.
When the cheap guns hit $1000 it made it a no brainer to go Colt for an extra hundred.
Personally, considering the labor and taxes involved in making a colt rifle, I'd be really leary of buying a cheap $1000 colt. They had to do some serious cost cutting somewhere to pay all those overpaid employess and still make the gun for that cost.
I don't drink or Smoke. I spend my money on gunpowder and gasoline.
When the cheap guns hit $1000 it made it a no brainer to go Colt for an extra hundred.
Personally, considering the labor and taxes involved in making a colt rifle, I'd be really leary of buying a cheap $1000 colt. They had to do some serious cost cutting somewhere to pay all those overpaid employess and still make the gun for that cost.
Maybe all these years Colt was just overcharging for their guns and you were paying a premium for the name?
When the cheap guns hit $1000 it made it a no brainer to go Colt for an extra hundred.
Personally, considering the labor and taxes involved in making a colt rifle, I'd be really leary of buying a cheap $1000 colt. They had to do some serious cost cutting somewhere to pay all those overpaid employess and still make the gun for that cost.
You realize that they're all the same rifle right? If you pay $1100 at Wal-Mart or $1600 at a gunshop, they're not any different except for the price.
You guys know that LE pricing has always been around $900 for a Colt? And the MIL pricing was under $800?
Dealer cost is basicly the same but not all dealers are Colt dealers. Colt has never been overpriced to dealers but the low numbers out there drove the price up in years past. If it was made by Colt Defense, it's the same mil spec gun sold to LE.
Don't blame your dealers high prices on Colt.
Now there is a company in Texas who is making a licensed Colt gun cheap but the 6920 is the same if from Walmart or straight from Colt.
I did forget about Colt Manufacturing, they are the ones who produced the Match Target guns during the ban. They ran about $900 over the counter and of course had all the politicly correct features. They did scrimp on those, I remember a plastic buffer and no chrome lining. Oh and a plastic butt plate on the A2 stocks.
But I saw more of those guns that would shoot 1/2 MOA than I would've ever expected. And they were not target guns by any means, they just had good non chrome lined barrels.
Personally, considering the labor and taxes involved in making a colt rifle, I'd be really leary of buying a cheap $1000 colt. They had to do some serious cost cutting somewhere to pay all those overpaid employess and still make the gun for that cost.
They did in their 6920. They used a non-certified barrel steel which isn't the same composition as called for in an actual M4 and then skipped the HPT and MPI. Then combine that barrel with a non-standardized gas port. They use a cheaper to manufacture receiver extension of unspecified material composition on it. They skip properly staking the gas key and the receiver extension nut where they instead use loctite. They install a regular carbine buffer to go with a generous gas port. They use a bolt of unspecified material composition and then skip the HPT and MPI on it. It can be hit and miss on which extractor spring and buffer are installed too.
Sorry, that was tongue in cheek. When speaking specifically about M4 type carbines, the Colt 6920 has all of those attributes whereas very few other manufactures do in their M4 type offering.
Personally, considering the labor and taxes involved in making a colt rifle, I'd be really leary of buying a cheap $1000 colt. They had to do some serious cost cutting somewhere to pay all those overpaid employess and still make the gun for that cost.
They did in their 6920. They used a non-certified barrel steel which isn't the same composition as called for in an actual M4 and then skipped the HPT and MPI. Then combine that barrel with a non-standardized gas port. They use a cheaper to manufacture receiver extension of unspecified material composition on it. They skip properly staking the gas key and the receiver extension nut where they instead use loctite. They install a regular carbine buffer to go with a generous gas port. They use a bolt of unspecified material composition and then skip the HPT and MPI on it. It can be hit and miss on which extractor spring and buffer are installed too.
Oh wait.....
Hound do you figure the DM bandit can figure this out? Or will it go over his head?
For liberals and anarchists, power and control is opium, selling envy is the fastest and easiest way to get it. TRR. American conservative. Never trust a white liberal. Malcom X Current NRA member.
When the cheap guns hit $1000 it made it a no brainer to go Colt for an extra hundred.
Personally, considering the labor and taxes involved in making a colt rifle, I'd be really leary of buying a cheap $1000 colt. They had to do some serious cost cutting somewhere to pay all those overpaid employess and still make the gun for that cost.
No.
They sell guns to the military for significantly less money. They also make more ARs than nearly anyone else.
Please go ahead and enlighten us on what characteristics 4140 has that are indeed better than what is called for by MIL-B11595E. Please feel free to explain what is "better" that you are speaking of in ref to M4 carbines.
umm ok well I don't have time to go into it all but here watch a video and enlighten yourself it talks about milspec and how departing from it in many cases means a better gun. get off the freaking colt high horse, they have your gun if you want to pay too much and be stuck with limited options and m4 barrel profiles. mil spec isn't the be all end all.
So the Nut guy whom I am sure graduated from Mechanical Engineering at Harvard Summa Cum Laude is relying on his own genius and easily discounts all the military has learned about the AR-15 since Vietnam!
Buy what you want and listen to Nut guy recommendation for your self defense carbine as he is smarter than everyone else, why just look at all the Military contracts the superior RRA's rifle has won!
I didn't watch the video. I started it and the name "nut'n fancy" popped up so I turned right off. The guy has a really bad habit of using a 100 words when 2 will get the job done. My own personal experience outweighs a youtube video anyway.
As far as Mil-Spec VS Non-Mil-Spec goes. Well, for me it just depends on what I want the weapon for. If I'm looking for a rifle for home defense, etc. I do want a mil-spec rifle and for me personally I don't want much if any aftermarket crap on it. I can certainly understand why some feel mil-spec isn't needed as most real world civilian gunfights only involve a few rounds but, a true mil spec (i.e. Colt) personally gives me peace of mind. Now if it's a hunting, plinking, target rifle, I could care less if it's Mil-Spec or not and would actually prefer some parts not be Mil-Spec. More accurate barrel, smoother/lighter trigger, etc.
It just all depends on what I want the rifle for. Me personally, I'm down to two. One short barreled Colt 6920 for personal defense and a super accurate lightweight semi custom without the first Mil-Spec part on it for punching paper and hunting. I'm very happy with both.
As far as Windham goes, who knows but I would take one over a BCM anyday
Last edited by TC1; 08/29/13. Reason: just clarified a few things
why is the first response to criticize the maker of the video?? If anyone has tested AR 15's more and more different brands please link to their video!!!! This guy actually shoots the guns in environments that will test them and yeah the videos are long because there is alot of info gathered.
I know we are talking about windham AR's so why a rock river video. RRA is a company that on purpose departs from milspec, I can't think of another brand that so happily departs from mil spec. thats why I posted the video, maybe all the non mil spec haters might actually learn something. if you bought an overpriced options limited colt and can't stomach there being a better value out there, then just consider yourself close minded. AR 15's DONT START AND END WITH COLT.
take the time to learn what mil spec actually is and what it means to the gun. there are limiting factors with mil spec, know what they are, I could care less if my bolt is MPI. none of us here is going to be fighting the taliban with our own personal AR 15's so why not have better parts OR parts that better suit the intended use of your gun. that is all I am saying. your barrel is too long so your gun isn't really mil spec anyways, and you will never need the step down in the m4 barrel contour for a grenade launcher. so quit running around like some military ninja, thinking my gun is mil spec and its better than yours. that sounds like a freaking 5th grader in the bathroom trying to say his hog is bigger than yours. the question should be are the parts reliable for the intended use you put them through, ie not fighting the taliban or insurgents. most guys never put thousands of rounds through their guns either.
why is the first response to criticize the maker of the video??
I gave you a reason. I personally find the guy annoying. I happen to agree with a lot of his points on different guns but find it fatiguing to sit through 45 min. of what could have been covered in 5.
I think most here know what mil spec is and isn't plus you're way out of line with your military ninja and 5th grader comments.
The big flaw with the video is that the Nut dude takes a substandard feature and tries to sell it as an advantage. Like a used car salesman telling you the rust holes in the floor will keep you cool at 60 MPH.
Most would agree that by accepting his "review" of the RRA features you have to reject years of tried and validated practice by the US and other world military organizations.
The RRA gun is probably a very accurate and acceptable rifle with a decent barrel on it and will make a fine hunting or plinking gun. On the other hand you are doing a disservice by trying to delude others into thinking the RRA gun is as good as a Colt for LE or home defense use.
... On the other hand you are doing a disservice by trying to delude others into thinking the RRA gun is as good as a Colt for LE or home defense use.
In December 2003, after outperforming 10 other manufacturers in rifle abuse tests, Rock River Arms was awarded a contract with the Drug Enforcement Administration for a minimum of 5,000 LAR-15 rifles to be purchased over five years.[5] As a result of Rock River Arms winning the DEA contract, other federal agencies, including the Federal Bureau of Investigation and United States Marshals, have also obtained Rock River Arms weapons under piggyback contracts.[6]
Above is from Wikipedia .. so take the reference for what its worth.
Added the a link to the reference, didn't read it, just providing it.
Was looking for a mid-weight target/plinking/vermin ... saw one of the Windham variants, but always here folks **tch*** about them. Rarely a nice thing to say. So I thought I'd ask.
Actually finally settled on a Rock River ATH. Nice rifle, I like it.
Don't matter if you're fighting or hunting with your AR, the deal is exactly as I said it was; when the cheap guns hit $1000, it made it a no brainer to spend an extra $100 for a Colt.
Now there has been 2 companies make a bolt that could be better than mil spec. KAC has probably the best bolt out there and has proven it in testing. One other company that I can't recall right now, has offset lugs that in theory should make em last longer.
Stronger steel and manufacturing methods mean something to me, don't care what horse anyone else wants to ride.
All others need not apply.
It's foolish to think that folks cutting corners on all the little details that 40+ years of testing dictated as necassary could offer anything better at $100 or even $200 less.
FWIW, I have one Colt pencil barrel left that gave me a 6" group at 400 yards last Saturday. The rest of my stuff varies to suit my needs or wants, I have no factory AR but if I bought another one it would be a Colt.
True dat ..... I do see a 6920 in my future ... I just didn't find a Colt I liked for NRA Sporting rifle shooting ... RRA had two different rifles I liked, Windham had one ... but a lousy trigger. Just gotta figure out what to sell next to fund my 6920 purchase.
Not in a real hurry .... I like my SKS for such duties ... It has yet to hiccup in several years of ownership (finally cleaned it this last summer) & flinging the Wolf WPA its not too shabby in the accuracy dept. Tula patterns however.
How many people wear milspec boots and clothes when they hunt? How many use milspec packs and sleeping bags when they backpack? It must be the best, after all it's milspec. Just sayin'.
Always remember mil spec is the minimum. If your choice can't even match the minimum, what do you have?
Having said that, no Colt doesn't offer a 20" target gun, well they offer one but it hasn't been produced in a number of years. But let's say you wanted a RR NM gun. You don't have to worry about the receiver extension cause A2's are all the same. Going SS dismisses the 4140 barrel steel. You get a decent trigger, float tube hand guard and the rest of the furniture is GTG as well. 20" guns seem to always run, gas ports are standardized so nothing to worry about there as well as A2 RE's take the standard rifle buffer and nothing else. A very good gun for the money.
How many people wear milspec boots and clothes when they hunt? How many use milspec packs and sleeping bags when they backpack? It must be the best, after all it's milspec. Just sayin'.
I don't wear military boots, clothes or packs because what I use is identifiably better for me. But many folks have no idea hat the differences are with mil-spec and not ARs so how can they know if one is better. Educating yourself about the product and your needs is the key.
And besides all that, a gas operated rifle is significantly more complicated than a pair of boots to build and maintain so your analogy is pretty lame.
And besides all that, a gas operated rifle is significantly more complicated than a pair of boots to build and maintain so your analogy is pretty lame.
No it's not. Both standards were written by pencil-necked geeks in some cubbyhole in the Pentagon or some Arsenal somewhere as to what would meet military standards.
Not quite, you see The AR has been tested and retested and all the little things that make it run go into the TDP which is the blue prints to build the M4.
Cheaper non mil spec companies don't come close to meeting the TDP much less surpassing it.
genius level thinking! The military who has broken more DI guns than all three of the recreation gun manufacturers will produce in 25 years knows nothing about what needs to be specified to make sure the next one don't break in the hands of a soldier.
RRA, Bushwacker, and Winded know where they can take cost out of the gun thus increasing profit....nothing less, nothing more.
How many people wear milspec boots and clothes when they hunt? How many use milspec packs and sleeping bags when they backpack? It must be the best, after all it's milspec. Just sayin'.
I don't wear military boots, clothes or packs because what I use is identifiably better for me. But many folks have no idea hat the differences are with mil-spec and not ARs so how can they know if one is better. Educating yourself about the product and your needs is the key.
Milspec is just one-way, it ain't necesarily the best way. "Milspec" means 1in7 twist, got tracers? I don't. "Milspec" means I have turned down sections on the barrel to atatch a grenade launcher, got one of those? "Milspec" 4150 chromo barrel steel, that's better than SS right?
I'm not sayin' a DPMS is as good as a Colt, I ain't stupid, there is a mushy middle in their somewhere though.
Wanna learn AR's? Build a parts gun and learn to unphuck problems as they arise.
Mil-spec seems like a good start but what is interesting is to hear conflict of when a part is better even if it is not mil-spec. As an example the Rainer Raptor ambi charging handle is not mil-spec due to the way it is milled (as explained to me) but the different method machining leads to a stronger part so does it now make it a bad thing it is not mil-spec?
Hunt hard, kill clean, waste nothing and offer no apologies.
"In rifle work, group size is of some interest...but it is well to remember that a rifleman does not shoot groups, he shoots shots." Jeff Cooper
Mil spec is the starting point. Building up from there is a great way to get what you want.
For example, if I was going to build "MY" perfect AR, lets start with a Walmart 6920. Add a Noveske 16" SS light weight barrel. A 13" Troy Alpha rail. A 2 stage trigger from Geisselle or an enhanced RR. A B5 SOPMOD stock. A Magpul MOE grip and enhanced trigger guard. KNS trigger pins and you have my basic blueprint for my perfect AR.
If you're gonna change something, change it for the better...
How many people wear milspec boots and clothes when they hunt? How many use milspec packs and sleeping bags when they backpack? It must be the best, after all it's milspec. Just sayin'.
I don't wear military boots, clothes or packs because what I use is identifiably better for me. But many folks have no idea hat the differences are with mil-spec and not ARs so how can they know if one is better. Educating yourself about the product and your needs is the key.
Milspec is just one-way, it ain't necesarily the best way. "Milspec" means 1in7 twist, got tracers? I don't. "Milspec" means I have turned down sections on the barrel to atatch a grenade launcher, got one of those? "Milspec" 4150 chromo barrel steel, that's better than SS right?
I'm not sayin' a DPMS is as good as a Colt, I ain't stupid, there is a mushy middle in their somewhere though.
Wanna learn AR's? Build a parts gun and learn to unphuck problems as they arise.
thats what I am talking about. all you mil spekies put that in your pipe and smoke it. along with your mil spec boots and back pack. The serious guys build their guns with the parts they want on them. so one would argue whats the point of mil spec guns to the public anyways if its more the recreational shooter that is anamored by mil spec
That'll do. Who makes that rail you have there John?
The float tube is the new Geissele MKI.
I bet you are asking about our new riser. It is almost ready for release. I wanted a better way to bridge across the upper and the fore end and it turned out perfect for how I like to mount optics. Really stabilizes the fore end only weighs an once more than the old PRI riser.
Better pic.
Originally Posted by jimmyp
Nice shooting John, What barrel do you have on that rifle, what trigger?
The barrel is a 16 inch Wyoming Arms (that's me) and the trigger is the Geissele Match with the DMR second stage spring or the DMR with the Match first stage spring. 2 1/2 pounds on the first and 1 pound on the 2nd.
John Burns
I have all the sources. They can't stop the signal.
yes he discovered that Windham like RRA and Bushmaster is a super recreational AR15 that could be fired 500 rounds a year for the rest of his life. They are like the Rossi or Taurus of AR's.
yes he discovered that Windham like RRA and Bushmaster is a super recreational AR15 that could be fired 500 rounds a year for the rest of his life. They are like the Rossi or Taurus of AR's.
do he didn't the get colt is better than everyone else's AR I suppose.
yes he discovered that Windham like RRA and Bushmaster is a super recreational AR15 that could be fired 500 rounds a year for the rest of his life. They are like the Rossi or Taurus of AR's.
BS ... that's what you tried to convey to me .... Most my rifles typically see 1-2k per year. (I plane on shooting this in NRA Sporting rifle competitions).
I had a cheap-a$$ DPMS M-4-ish rifle that I put nearly 2k rounds through during the year and a half I owned it ... shot 5 rounds of its preferred ammo into an inch on its first day and its last day of ownership. It may have had one malfunction in that time ... I'm not sure. I do know it wasn't problematic and did what I asked of it.
I am sorry if I offended your people or in this case DPMS or whatever they are. I am sure they are a fine recreational rifle. On the Internet round count is an exponential extrapolation from reality. How many folks come to Larry Vickers carbine classes toting the ballyhooed DPMS you reckon?
How many folks come to Larry Vickers carbine classes toting the ballyhooed DPMS you reckon?
I know a guy who shows up at 3-gun matches with a parts gun of mostly DPMS parts (Montana Barrel) and proceeds to stomp everyone else's azz with it. He says parts is parts. He also says if you have a gas system dialed in, cracked bolts are a non-issue, just check for headspace when you change the barrel. Me, I would get a new bolt, change all the carrier parts, and install a new gas tube with a new barrel.
I fully believe that unless the rifle is gassed wrong ( and the correct buffer can fix this, maybe), and that is a distinct possibility with some makers, if you install top-shelf recoil springs/extractor springs and make sure the chamber is kosher, a DPMS/Bushie will most likely run with a Colt.
I am sorry if I offended your people or in this case DPMS or whatever they are. I am sure they are a fine recreational rifle. On the Internet round count is an exponential extrapolation from reality. How many folks come to Larry Vickers carbine classes toting the ballyhooed DPMS you reckon?
While not my top choice, I've some DPMS parts on uppers, and thought years ago they were a bit on the flimsy side, they beefed up after some bad issues.
Beyond that I wouldn't hesitate to build a gun out of their parts and assume it would be as good as any other gun out there. And a bit of firing would tell me if it was or if some parts needed to be better or not. Just like parting up any other upper unless done with specifiically known good parts etc... IE WOP parts instead of run of the mill.
but all in all, if I could test run a DPMS, or about any other one for a couple hundred roudns, like any other gun, i'd take it to anyones class.
But thats just me.
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
How many folks come to Larry Vickers carbine classes toting the ballyhooed DPMS you reckon?
I know a guy who shows up at 3-gun matches with a parts gun of mostly DPMS parts (Montana Barrel) and proceeds to stomp everyone else's azz with it. He says parts is parts. He also says if you have a gas system dialed in, cracked bolts are a non-issue, just check for headspace when you change the barrel. Me, I would get a new bolt, change all the carrier parts, and install a new gas tube with a new barrel.
I fully believe that unless the rifle is gassed wrong ( and the correct buffer can fix this, maybe), and that is a distinct possibility with some makers, if you install top-shelf recoil springs/extractor springs and make sure the chamber is kosher, a DPMS/Bushie will most likely run with a Colt.
Of course it will! But for the extra $100, the Colt will be ready to shoot. That's the problem with the cheaper guns, you don't always get a true 5.56 chamber and they're usually over gassed. If you get a good one, it'll work fine but if you don't...
Of course it will! But for the extra $100, the Colt will be ready to shoot. That's the problem with the cheaper guns, you don't always get a true 5.56 chamber and they're usually over gassed. If you get a good one, it'll work fine but if you don't...
I agree! If I had to grab one and go, it'd be the Colt, for sure. For one thing, those Colt barrels will, IME, outshoot most non-SS match barrels.
What I'm saying is there MIGHT not be that much difference between a Walmart Colt and what most think are "hobby" guns, but then again, you might have an issue or two to sort out. One thing about DPMS guns I've noticed, is if it isn't a SASS, it'll have [bleep] for a barrel.
Saying they're just as good after you sort out the problems and change a few parts is the same as saying they're not as good. It's just a nicer way of saying it.
yes he discovered that Windham like RRA and Bushmaster is a super recreational AR15 that could be fired 500 rounds a year for the rest of his life. They are like the Rossi or Taurus of AR's.
that statement is just asinine.
I remember an article written in shooting times, or guns and ammo, or some other gun magazine maybe a year ago where the author shot 6 piston guns and six gas guns over the course of a few thousand rounds while subjecting them to conditions none of us would put our guns thru. The only two guns to make it thru the test without issue was a RRA and a Larue.
Last edited by dmsbandit; 09/03/13.
I don't drink or Smoke. I spend my money on gunpowder and gasoline.
Saying they're just as good after you sort out the problems and change a few parts is the same as saying they're not as good. It's just a nicer way of saying it.
Sort of, but many (not necessarily here) think that every single "milspec" part of a Colt is somehow superior to other guns and it ain't so. There aren't that many manufacturers of the individual parts out there, ALL the makers buy stuff from the same vendors. Colt and others probably scrutinize what they buy a bit closer than DPMS does, but that's just a WAG on my part, I don't know, but what I do know if parts guns made mostly from DPMS parts run just fine.
It's not just the making, it's the testing, inspection and repeatability of quality prior to calling it "milspec". kwg
For liberals and anarchists, power and control is opium, selling envy is the fastest and easiest way to get it. TRR. American conservative. Never trust a white liberal. Malcom X Current NRA member.
Saying they're just as good after you sort out the problems and change a few parts is the same as saying they're not as good. It's just a nicer way of saying it.
Thats true, assuming you have to replace anything.
I will never forget that my first Zeiss scope was a lemon... broke something loose on the first shot...
And that some of the lesser quality guns are just that, have to have parts replaced that were soft etc...
You don't know till you shoot, and that can go for the Colt too.
Always, at least IMHO, depends on what you want to do with the gun.
For reliability off the shelf factory Colt would be top in my books, but not for accuracy or good triggers.
Of course it gets back to why I build my own, use the parts I know work etc..... and why if I don't know, I ask around.
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
yes he discovered that Windham like RRA and Bushmaster is a super recreational AR15 that could be fired 500 rounds a year for the rest of his life. They are like the Rossi or Taurus of AR's.
that statement is just asinine.
I remember an article written in shooting times, or guns and ammo, or some other gun magazine maybe a year ago where the author shot 6 piston guns and six gas guns over the course of a few thousand rounds while subjecting them to conditions none of us would put our guns thru. The only two guns to make it thru the test without issue was a RRA and a Larue.
Odd that some gun rag finds contrary to what is known to be reality. Was the RRA advertizement on the same page as the article?
yes he discovered that Windham like RRA and Bushmaster is a super recreational AR15 that could be fired 500 rounds a year for the rest of his life. They are like the Rossi or Taurus of AR's.
that statement is just asinine.
I remember an article written in shooting times, or guns and ammo, or some other gun magazine maybe a year ago where the author shot 6 piston guns and six gas guns over the course of a few thousand rounds while subjecting them to conditions none of us would put our guns thru. The only two guns to make it thru the test without issue was a RRA and a Larue.
Odd that some gun rag finds contrary to what is known to be reality. Was the RRA advertizement on the same page as the article?
May 2011 issue of Guns and Ammo magazine. Check it out yourself, maybe you don't know as much as you think you do?
Last edited by dmsbandit; 09/04/13.
I don't drink or Smoke. I spend my money on gunpowder and gasoline.
I know I am more honest than a gun rag that could review a raven and call it the "the gun of the century" if they got paid enough. I owned a bushmaster and I owned a RRA both were OK.
If a newly minted LEO asked your advice would you tell him "they all work so get a Windham"? When he says "all my instructors say get a Colt" are you going to tell him "that is BS, Windham is just as good for your application"?
well,the New Yorkistan State Police are now carrying RRA guns in their patrol cars. I doubt NYS Police go with the cheapest available product.
The ironic thing is, since our Imperial Governor signed the NY SAFE ACT, RRA and 150 other companies won't do business with any state or local government agency. Too bad Glock and S&W wouldn't do the same.
I don't drink or Smoke. I spend my money on gunpowder and gasoline.
My buddy, here in Kommifornia, bought a Windham AR ... it shoots great! However, he didn't realize 'til long after he bought it, that one of the take down pins was missing both the detent and the detent spring. Those parts aren't expensive, and the rifle still worked, but it is indicative of poor quality control.
Last edited by Ivan; 09/27/13.
"Pick up a rifle and you change instantly from a subject to a citizen." - Jeff Cooper
well,the New Yorkistan State Police are now carrying RRA guns in their patrol cars. I doubt NYS Police go with the cheapest available product.
The ironic thing is, since our Imperial Governor signed the NY SAFE ACT, RRA and 150 other companies won't do business with any state or local government agency. Too bad Glock and S&W wouldn't do the same.
RRA is one of the better of the older hobby gun brands, but leaves a lot to be desired. In service with some federal agencies they have exhibited problems.
Not all LE personnel, even the ones making the purchasing decisions, are gun experts. To most, AR's are all the same. They could care less if something is chrome lined or have a mil spec sized buffer tube. If it breaks, they get it fixed.
I however like to buy the best I can afford and a extra $100-$200 for a slightly better gun is worth it to me. Especially if I intend to use it for a defense purpose.
Last edited by CBMJR; 09/28/13.
John 8:12 "I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life."
well,the New Yorkistan State Police are now carrying RRA guns in their patrol cars. I doubt NYS Police go with the cheapest available product.
The ironic thing is, since our Imperial Governor signed the NY SAFE ACT, RRA and 150 other companies won't do business with any state or local government agency. Too bad Glock and S&W wouldn't do the same.
RRA is one of the better of the older hobby gun brands, but leaves a lot to be desired. In service with some federal agencies they have exhibited problems.
In the last few months I've become friends with a guy who has worked for BlackWater and is currently employed by the state department. He's been places in the world none of us would ever want to visit, and I trust his opinion on alot of things firearm related. He's put tens of thousands of rounds thru all sorts of weapons in all sorts of conditions.
He speaks VERY highly of the RRA operator series rifles. He would take those guns over a DPMS, Bushmaster, or Windham any day.
I don't drink or Smoke. I spend my money on gunpowder and gasoline.
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