Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Muzzleloaders bore capacity question

No matter. You'll hate shooting that load.

Why? Why would i hate shooting that load?

Other than recoil from hell. No, I don't think all the powder will burn. I don't believe a powder load half that size will burn completely.

Enough will burn to still be a stout load though. Especially, with such a heavy bullet. I'd also be concerned about overloading the barrel.

The best thing is to increase the loads slowly up to that amount, and chrono them to see where gains end.

Why would you want to shoot that load? It's around 50% more powder than any other published load I can find, and 150% more than the Goex website.

There's an easy way to answer your question though. Lay out a white sheet (or two) in front of the muzzle, load 'er up, let 'er rip, and see what ends up on the sheet. Probably work best if you shoot from prone.

Let us know how it turns out.

PS, I'm guessing your bullet will deform, your barrel will get leaded, and accuracy will be poor.

If you're talking about a cartridge rifle, you may want to ask the question on the black powder cartridge forum.

? im sorry i thought i said muzzleloader.its a custom muzzleloader job. the barrel is modern gun type steel,thats all. i use blacpowder.

..... the barrel is used for a wildcat smokeless cartridge that pushes 650 and 750 grainers to 2800fps with the pressure level of a 458 win mag,due to powder choices and longer barrels.

My .02.....

Methinks your best chance of success is running heavyweight .50 bullets in a .58 sabot, if elongated projectiles is what your after.

If it's speed your looking for with a big bullet, think about a Forsythe (sp?) rifled big bore roundball slinger.
Pacific rifle used to build a 12 bore underhammer flinging a 500 grain ball to 2,000 fps. with (if I'm remembering correctly) 200 grains of FF.
They also built an 8 bore with a neat double-nipple arrangement to help with ingnition that handled some pretty huge charges.

If you look at sheer velocity, it ain't easy to beat the ball, even with a sabot (with black powder). Conicals may have somewhat higher BC's, but it takes a pretty good stretch before they start to catch up in terms of speed (ergo, trajectory). I've NEVER seen any data anywhere that would get a bore-sized conical of reasonable weight for the caliber much past 1300fps with black powder. Look up a few BC's for rounballs, sabots, and conicals and play around on Hornady's calculator. It'll embarrass a few marketing gurus.

Of course, I'm one of the few left that still has some appreciation for the lowly roundball and black powder. They will do things that other forms of projectile and propellant can't, but the cool kids on TV don't get paid to pimp them....

Methinks your best chance of success is running heavyweight .50 bullets in a .58 sabot, if elongated projectiles is what your after.

You might want to think again on those sabots. Im not away of any company that makes a 58x50 sabot. I may be wrong but i would be very interested if you have a link to such a sabot.

This is why I brought up cartridges.....

the guy doing the work says the breechplug is ok.
you described some heavy bullets for that caliber! im going to use 750 grain solids with 2F or 3F 250 grains. my gun will probly weigh 10 lbs when finished,but ill roll with it.

thanks for the interesting info.

Yes you will.

Si.

What is being contemplated is roughly a 24 bore with a 9 bore projectile weight and 9+ drams of powder. Total charge mass is 1,000 grains. Rock and roll...

I would agree with Dan . Its not the barrel that�s the issue but if the breech will hold the pressure .
Built properly it should .
The other question is will your stock design be able to withstand the recoil

I would also agree that most of the powder will be burnt . With that charge you probably will get some that wont but I would bet that something around 80-90 % will

Now to the issue of recoil .
How much felt recoil your going to get will also depend on the stock , its weight and its lines . A very light stock can often feel heavier in recoil then one with a heavy stock
While IMO a 500 grain projectile isn�t that heavy for a 58 , if that bullet and amount of charge is used on a stock with a slim wrist and a lot of drop ,then your asking for trouble .
But if you have the stock made for the purpose of that type of charge and the grain is ran through the wrist correctly , with a good quality wood ,and rather shallow in the drop , not only will the stock withstand that charge but even greater charges

It could be i need to go up in diameter to make use of a 9 dram load efficiently.i will see.

If its a custom barrel, only that maker can tell you what the safe charge is. Just because its modern steel, doesnt mean you can load up an enormous charge and think its ok, theres many grades of steel out on the market.

You would build a rifle around a powder charge? I know lots of guys select the bullet they want to shoot, and build a rifle around it. Or they put together the rifle they want to shoot, and then develop a load.

I'd like to see a photo of that bad boy when it's finished.

if the intent is to use a modern center fire barrel , then IMO the barrel will hold the charge .
again the key is the breech . which should hold fine for that charge in a 58 as the bore pressure is still going to be less then the same charge with like or heavier bullets in a smaller bore like a 41 or 45 cal .

Now does that mean it would hold up to smokeless powder . My take on it is that would depend on the powder and the ignition design . Even if you used a 209 primer but used a traditional styled lock , the lock itself would have to be able to withstand the blow back pressure of the powder . So what powder one could use would then also be dependant on the lock not just the breech .

Building a gun to withstand progressive powders has more to consider then if you just built the gun for use with black powder or and substitute. I sure wouldn�t slap a plug in it and say ; there you go .
Just because the barrel may hold or be designed to hold a smokeless charge , doesn�t mean the rest of the gun will

Are you hunting, or just burning powder?

i hunt yes but thats not where i was going with this thread.Until i go hunting i will be burning powder.

If its a custom barrel, only that maker can tell you what the safe charge is. Just because its modern steel, doesnt mean you can load up an enormous charge and think its ok, theres many grades of steel out on the market.

Ok, i'm just wondering what goal you're trying to achieve for hunting? What animal, distance etc.?

110�SLUG GUN RIFLE�No limit on weight or caliber.

Yeah, but can you shoot 250 grains of powder out of 'em.

Great Googly Oogly!

ya LOL , the only thing funner is watching folks shoot them .
try doing a google for ; shooting the 4 bore rifle .
you should get a "Kick" out of it

RC, I'm not here to rain on your parade, just broaching discussion on ancillary aspects of your proposal. Several folks have inquired about your intended use of the gun and from what I read in your response it appears your objective is more directed at reaching a particular charge level more than anything else. Nothing wrong with that, though it does not tickle my fancy all that much.

Capchee discussed the necessity of having a lock mechanism suitable for the endeavor and I have inquired on the same issue. It is far more significant than the quality of steel in your barrel. Cartridge guns use cartridges for convenience and also as gaskets which allow the high pressure modern smokeless guns employ. Muzzleloaders do not have that advantage, hence the implied concerns expressed. I mentioned underhammer and side hammer guns and suggest a popular reason for that geometry was to keep hot gas and debris out of the shooter's face.

Some decades back there was a legend of the bullet gun persuasion that had a gun known as Ol' Butt Burner. Reason for that was the day the gas jet from the clean out port on the right face of the gun burned a hole in the backside of a pair of jeans worn by a shooter at the adjacent lane, approximately 6' away.

Now as I understand it, you're looking at an inline configuration? If that is correct you have something there not unlike sealed ignition, which also contains venting gas after discharge, assuming it is properly designed and employed. The short version of what I'm saying is this. Don't worry so much about how much powder you can burn, many before you have burned more than you propose and with bullets bigger than you plan on using. Do concern yourself with the safety issues related to design and use, for your benefit and for those around you.

An example of "more" is found here. .56 caliber HV Perry sidehammer, cast steel barrel, built in the late 1800's. The fella that shoots it is your size, or my size for that matter. The recoil is....significant, despite it's 40+ pounds. The barrel is approximately 2.75" in diameter across the flats and about 28" long.



Another thing you need to consider is how you will load the gun. Unless the bullet is substantially undersize you will find loading problematic unless you have a bullet starter and false muzzle as pictured here with a .50 caliber bullet gun. This one is configured for cross strip patches, but you can do the same with grease groove bullets and no patches. It just isn't quite as simple as having someone build a cannon for you then shooting it.

I thought about your little project while bored in a treestand over the weekend and a few things occured to me.

First, an English Sporting Rifle, .69cal, 400grn.ball, 32" 1-in-105" or so, 1-1/8 dia, double keyed, 200grn. FFG, with a 2 leaf express and a tang sight will be far more practical and fun to hunt with. I'll bet if you start looking deeper at weight/recoil/horsepower ratios, it starts to get pretty practical in terms of the performace level your looking at.
If you bumped up to 10 bore on an 1-1/4" barrel, things would get even more interesting, though it'd be less fun to carry, and the .69 oughta lengthwise anything in Christendom.

Now, to leave practicality behind (which we've all done, admit it, and set in on your .58 project.
First, I think paper patching is your friend here. Driving a pure lead bare conical to 2,000 fps is gonna make a mess you don't wanna clean up and accuracy is gonna be non existant.
And I'm having a hard time imagining driving a .577 jacketed slug down the barrel with a sledge hammer.
Patched, you should be able to see 2,000 fps with pure lead, heat treated wheelweights, and anything inbetween without leading. There's a little bit of art to it, and admittedly, I've never fooled with it, but I think that's your best bet.
There should be some info here and there's a wealth of info over on the "Cast Boolits" websit.
Further, I don't know that you could utilize 250 grains under a 650 grain bullet in a .58 bore. But, I'd bet a cool brew that you'd see better performance thinking in terms of 200 grains under something like an 850 grainer. I think a 650 would be a bit squatty (some folks shoot 600 grainers in .45's), where a heavier bullet would build a bit more pressure, giving a more "complete" burn (as complete as your gonna get with black powder). Also, a longer bullet, at the same speed, should shoot a bit flatter.
I'd also look at paying a bit more (like, double) for Swiss Black Powder as opposed to Goex. It is, after all, supposed to be a performance machine.
I simply got to thinking about it in terms of, if the old British long range match riles could run 600 grain bullets and 120 grains of Black Powder, why couldn't you simply scale up to .58?
I dunno how much mention I'm allowed to make of other websites, so forgive me if this is considered a "foxpaw"; but take a peek at "Cast Boolits". Also, if it's still going (I've not looked in months) but the old "Nitro Express" website used to have a good bit on the subject.
Also, might take a peek at some of Doc White's and Jim Gefroh's stuff. They've turned out more than a few high performance large bore conical rifles.

Good luck and keep us posted.

I have noticed you have a fixation with heavy weighted guns.

The heaviest gun i have looked down the barrel of was a Barrett semi auto .50 BMG that weighed in at 35 pounds.Its not meant for hunting.

8 bore double

how much powder is used in that .56 caliber?