Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Long Range Hunting GAP/Sinclair/Bushnell LR Hunter

Pard's 5.5-22x.

A two pound scope in windage adjustable bases on a light rifle that probably has some recoil given the notch in pard's head. Now there's a combination made in heaven.

Everyone learns a hard lesson or two.

It were an 8mm Whizzum at the time and became a 7 Whizzum soon after. I bet you couldn't find a windage adjustable system in his herd anymore and I'm thinking most his Killing Glass is far more svelte and forgiving.

I'd prolly go so far as to say,it were a "Toldjaso" moment.(grin)

Flipside,from this year.

1st Gen Ti,rebarreled 1-8" 22-250AI and a 75A-Max at 540yds,from a 3450fps launch. Almost looks like a 6x42 with Duplex and M1 turrets...the horror.(grin)

Reading your comments here gives the image of the kid stomping his feet screaming the he didn't want the new blue bike, he wanted the red one.

First off the Bushnell HDMR is one of the most popular scopes in LR tactical shooting. The last "sniper match" that I shot is one of the biggest and in the "super squad" over 75% where using HDMR's. In comparison to sales of the G7 scopes..... There is none. There are A LOT of Bushnell HDMR's out there relatively speaking. The fact that you haven't seen one means that you need to get out more. Try out some LR field matches and you might just realize that those guys know some things shooting and hitting at long range.


It is obvious from your posts that your brain is stuck in the 500 to 600 yard range. This isn't for that. 5-600 yards is within the realm of normal hunting rifles and a good scope. It does not require much in the way of special equipment. For normal hunting rifles I prefer simpler reticles, solid turrets, and lighter weight. The NF 2.5-10x32mm with mildot reticle and 1/0th mil adjustments and the 3-9x42mm SWFA SS with mil quad reticle are what I choose to use because they hold zero and track correctly.







However,I also like fixed 6x Leupolds-




And even use some regular variable power Leupolds with M1's and a duplex-







But guns and scopes built for true long range shooting require something else.

That's where "those big honking turrets" and "big 34mm tubes" come in.





[img]http://i744.photobucket.com/albums/xx87/Vereor1/243WSSM.jpg[/img]


And where reticles like this are useful- [img]http://i744.photobucket.com/albums/xx87/Vereor1/IMG_20120922_171445_zps697f1d24.jpg[/img]

And while visually I can't stand all the "noise" with them, when there are multiple targets at different ranges they make second shot corrections and and wind holds a snap. If I'm going hunting with the knowledge that my shots are going to be over the 500 yard range I take one of those. Hitting at 900 yards is hitting at 900 yards and those setups do it better than anything else.



However, we are at the point now with guns, bullets and optics to where 800 plus yard shooting is possible with lighter weight rifles with anything that resembles consistency. What you are seeing with Pat and George's rifles and some others being built is a blending of lightweight hunting rifles and competition guns. Lighter guns and bullets are capable of long range hunting, but I don't really want to mount a 30oz scope with a Horus reticle and try to kill a deer in the woods at 60 yards with it. There hasn't been really any scope that has blended the two until this new Bushnell. Scopes like the LRHS are just as capable inside the woods as they are at 900 yards.

When shooting a goat at 1,100 yards you need/want the capability of the competition guns. You just want it lighter.

What does MOA get you? I get it. Emotionally you are latched on to MOA because you thinks it's "American" and it kind of lines up with inches. When/if you learn to how to shoot and stop thinking in "inches" and "clicks" than it doesn't matter whether it is MOA or mils. The reason for Mils is because mil based scopes are the standard for long range shooting in the world. The mil dot reticle is here to stay. Adjustments should match the reticle. Hence mils. Either one works, but I can tell you that shooters new to long range pick up using mils faster than MOA (probably because people are constantly trying to correlate MOA to inches).


As for the hashes every 1 MOA- do you have any idea how hard that would be to see at 12x?


Wanting to get rid of the marks on the vertical lines? Do you think that you only miss at long range left and right? That coupled with the fact that you think a mark above and below for a "short and long range zero" is a good idea, hints to me that you don't know as much about long range shooting as you think you do.



I love me some Leupold fixed 6 power scopes with M1's for true lightweight rifles, but this new Bushnell nicely blends the features and capabilities of LR sniper/tactical scopes with the size, weight and reticle usable for hunting at all ranges.

Formidilous,


What spotters would you recommend that come equipped with a mil reticle?

Is the Leupold version worth a schit?


Travis

Good stuff Formidilosus,
Thanks for posting!

At what Imagined distance,do bugs in the windshield become an "advantage"? Looking forward to that Pretend.

The farther I get downrange,the closer to center of the glass,is where I wish to be. That to aid in catching trace/impact,as well as pasting movers.

I getta kick outta the Mall Ninja Crowd and their 2-man reticles...screaming "get some",from the middle of the Golf Course.

This schit is [bleep] funny!

I hope the eye box is a little better than a 4.5-14 LR....

your post seemed kinda snobbish, yeah I am foot stomping like a little kid that didn't get what I want. I admit that. I think what they ended up with is a tactical scope and I will point out why I personally don't like that approach. I will try to take each point you made and tell my perspective. in context my passion is long range coyote hunting, I do this in utah, idaho, nevada, wyoming, colorado in a variety of conditions in a given year. and no I don't think in terms of 5-600 yards. I want to shoot out to as far as I can get a range on them, which is usually around 1000 yards give or take. The only advantage of the mil systems as I see it is it breaks down nicely in to 10th's, but MOA breaks down into quarters.

your point about the mildot reticle and being here to stay, ok IMO that is 1970's technology, none of the cutting edge scopes use that anymore most are marked with half mil marks instead of "dots" and yes I have owned both dot type and the newer TMR style scopes. with MOA being only about 5% off from inches, inches works.

next you tout how you need a 34 mm tube scope on your guns because they need to shoot so much further. ok well looking at your cases I don't see any that are 338 lapua, or 50 bmg laying on the ground. so what in the world is a 34mm tube getting you?? so are you shooting that what looks like a short mag of some sort or wssm ar past a mile?!?!?! if not the 34mm is a waste to you.

ok so your next point is about the clutter in the reticle and how that helps you spot misses and correct for them. I did ask a question in another post about guys getting out and shooting away from a sanitary gun range environment. it appears most of your shooting is done at the gun range. Most of my shooting is done in the field at coyotes or rocks. my spotting consists of my 11 year old looking through binoculars and saying dead coyote, wounded coyote or missed coyote. I don't get a second shot typically at a known distance to correct. This is the fundamental thing I am talking about a tactical shoot is different than hunting. sometimes I do get a second shot at coyotes at extended ranges but its never the same shot I just shot over again. a tactical shoot is much different and with distinct differences in shots than live targets, this is where I shoot, I don't get sighters or a spotter telling me to correct 3 10ths of a mil or 1 moa low. I don't even get help with a spotter to make wind calls, its my 11 year old or one of my buddies saying hit or no hit. a cluttered reticle does nothing to me, for one the scope comes off target under recoil so I don't spot my hits through the scope and have it come right back on target. lastly you ask how you see 1 moa marks at 12 power, have you looked at a nightforce MOAR reticle before?? they work just fine but they must be a SFP reticle or the markes will washout at low power. and lastly since I am trying to hit a very very small target such as a coyote I think the finer MOA system works better for making hits, .5 mil is approaching 2 MOA in size, what if your kill zone is half a MOA?? mil is bigger and will not work as well IMO.

Hey cc,
I appreciate your hanging in here.

If you shoot some easy (lol) club shoots or just look at a simple club shoot stages description, you'll begin to understand. The shoots are designed to test the rifleman just about every way. Lots of unsteady positions and lots of varying distances under time where you have to use your reticle for holdover.

If you can't spot your own shots, you lose.

Same goes in real life. If you rely on your son , you lose too

Nail down your drops, learn to read the wind and have a good rangefinder. A scope that works is a must with reticle you can live with.

Guys here saying they miss with elevation haven't done the work necessary to compete in a match OR kill game at Long Range. Missing elevation IS TOTALLY UNACCEPTABLE. Your load sucks or you can't use your rangefinder worth a damn.

If you have even the first smidgins of a [bleep] clue, your foundation is laid and it's all about the wind from there.

A good reticle helps with simple holdover.

Not snobbish at all. Not meant to be personal.

It is quite easy to make an inference on someone's knowledge and experience from what the write and say. Your complaints and desires show that you do not have a broad understanding of long range shooting. And that's ok.



Mil dots= mil based reticle. Guess I shouldn't have assumed that would be understood.

Don't think I ever said that I need 34mm tubes. I said true long range shooting is where 34mm tubes come in. The only 338L and 50's I shoot are issued, though I'm not sure that you are aware that it doesn't take a Lapua to run out of elevation on a scope? Personally I don't care whether it's a 1in, 30mm, 34mm or 35mm tube as long as it works and has enough travel. I just don't get my panties in a wad over how big the tube is. Ironic that you're upset over this, as the scope in question has a 30mm tube.


Your belief based on what I've written that my shooting is at sanitary gun ranges only solidifies my statements that you do not know as much as you think you do. You complain about snipershide, why don't you go shoot a decent LR tactical match on one of those sanitary gun ranges and then get back to us. Am thinking you'll come away with a bit better understanding and maybe just a bit humbled.

As for the cluttered reticle- maybe reread what I wrote. I stated that I do not like the visual noise that they create, however they help in environments that have multiple targets, at widely different ranges, with varying winds when speed matters. Could be a match, could be coyotes, could be war. Didn't say that they are good in general hunting scopes. Point in fact I said that I prefer simple mil based reticles, designed properly. If it is a dedicated long range scope I do prefer the H59 reticle above as it is broken down into .2 mil increments. The why's of the Horus and what it is for, is for another discussion, but reticles like that have their place.



You can't spot your own trace and impacts because your technique is wrong. With proper technique (even while hunting) you can, and should, spot your own shots. I watched the mule deer in the first picture crumple through the scope while siting using a pack as a rest even though it's an unbraked 300WinMag. Generally the only time I don't spot my own shots are offhand shots. It is a requirement for me and those I work with.



I am quite familiar with the MOAR. Hash marks that close either have to be overly thick so that they are visable on lower powers (10-12x), or they will wash out in dawn, dusk, and failing light. Again, the reason that I do not use Horus reticles for most hunting.

But let's say that you do get your 1 MOA hash marks and second focal plane so by you own admission they don't wash out at low powers; how does using the reticle when it doesn't subtend correctly on low powers work out for you? Tried it much?

Interesting.

I, and the rest of the long range world must be all jacked up what with mountainous terrain creating updrafts, downdrafts, thermals, eddys, etc. Pretty sure those will cause high and low impacts. As I stated above, some environments do not afford you the time to dial for every shot. As well in just about about every match I have shot there is at least one stage, if not the entire match, where rangefinders are not allowed. So yes, there are plenty of times where you can miss due to elevation even if you know the range precisely.

formido, The point is not to say what I do or don't know or what you don't know or do know, the point is I come here to learn new things. I do agree with you on your last post about having just as much trouble with elevation as wind, There are lots of variables. you seem well versed in them so I will not go into that.

in regards to a SFP reticle. I honestly don't use the between powers on my main squeeze rifle, which is topped with a NF 3.5-15 MOAR. I use the low power setting when I am calling coyotes off shooting sticks, I crank to high when I need to dial, shoot at the range, or make a long range shot. I don't need the markings of the scope if I am only shooting 300 ish yards. I suspect most other people run their scopes in similar fashion. I have not had any issue with the MOAR reticle in fact a couple weeks ago I was setting up on a coyote that was yipping at us. distance 650, light was horrible and fading fast. I could barely see and make out the range in the geovids. I went prone and found the coyote in my scope, never thinking to switch on the illumination. lets just say the MOAR reticle is good enough to exceed the light gathering of my RF binoculars without being illuminated. thickness has also never been an issue either. me personally I have a little trouble picking up and quickly counting over to the 3 or 4 minute marks on the reticle, which has the floating cross, then it goes right to 2 minutes at the next mark. I like the GAP reticle how the lines are different sizes with every other one being mostly below the line. I think the basic design could make a great SFP MOA reticle

I shoot monthly in a match held in mountainous terrain for the last 4 years as well as a couple of the toughest Practical Field Matches in the country.

In the monthly known range match, I would estimate that 99% of misses are due to wind calls left and right. Elevation errors are due to a poor load that has too much vertical, atmospheric changes as the day progresses, human dialing error, and mostly shooters who haven't done their homework.

In the field matches where you must find and range your own target, I believe the vast majority of elevation errors are due to mis-ranging the target. It's difficult to get readings sometimes on the plate or an object near it.

When you start shooting beyond 1000 yards, the quality of your load becomes apparent elevation-wise

Are there up drafts and down drafts causing elevation errors? Sure, but I say they are the exception and not the rule.

Given the current "Tactical" mood in the Marketplace,theMil/Mil arrangement is smart business,when weighed objectively. FFP will swoon some more and I savvy it from all angles,both in Theory and Application.

I can gun most any reticle,that isn't so proud as to cover the victim up and I'm always gonna be Dealing Death from crosshair intersection. That until I'm outta erector travel and then,you's simply gotta do whatcha' gotta do.

Shooting,hitting,killing,is easy. I'd like some firsthand intel,on how said glass takes a lick and weathers literal storms. Beat the [bleep] outta one and submerge it and you've my attention,as suppositions never have swooned me,though results have my full attention.

Wandering zero "retention",unreliable erectors and mechanically failed glass...cause farrrrrrrrrrrr more Real World issues,than where bugs are splattered on the windshield.

Hint.