24hourcampfire.com
24hourcampfire.com
-->
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Page 2 of 3 1 2 3
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 50,643
Likes: 1
Campfire Kahuna
Offline
Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 50,643
Likes: 1
Originally Posted by Colorado1135
I have a claro walnut rifle stock that I need to put a finish on, it is raw wood right now and has been fitted/bedded to the action by a friend of mine. all I have to do is finish it, what is a good type/brand of wood finish to use and what should I avoid?
Wife said she doesn't care what it looks like, but it has really nice grain and I want that to show nicely.

any suggestions?
thanks in advance!


A few things to realize... Claro is almost always very large-pored. It will take some doing to fill those pores. Please, do NOT wet sand the wood to get sanding slurry to fill the pores! The slurry will dull any finish it is used with.

The old-time stockmakers wet-sanded but they were seldom using open-pored wood and very little slurry got into the pores. It was also a time when oil was not wasted. They hand rubbed it in because it was starting to cure and needed the heat from their hands to penetrate.

Do not cut finishes with solvents, especially early coats. That solvent will work its way out eventually and it will leave pores in the finish large enough for water molecules to run through with their heads up. If Tru-Oil is too thick right off the shelf return it. It should be very thin to start. Buy tiny cans of finish for stocks because few use enough to be using fresh oil for each stock.

For quick finishing that works very well Saddlesore laid it out pretty well. You do not need to sand after each coat and you can get away with a lot fewer coats if you don't. Just put the finish on fairly heavy and fast, wait a bit and then rub absolutely dry with a clean cloth. Enough finish will stick to make it worthwhile and the build will come. By thinning the Spar Varnish with good oil you gradually produce a finish that is easier and easier to repair and looks more like oil.

The early sandings while filling will be needed to keep the surface true.

Also, NEVER use any Satin or Matte finish on stocks. The matting agents used are mostly silica and do nothing positive for the finish. They do lots of negatives though. Polish the surface after you are done to produce the finish you want. Buffing out with rottenstone in mineral oil on a felt rag works quickly and does a better job. Let the stock sit for at least a month before buffing it out.
art


Mark Begich, Joaquin Jackson, and Heller resistance... Three huge reasons to worry about the NRA.

Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 50,643
Likes: 1
Campfire Kahuna
Offline
Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 50,643
Likes: 1
Originally Posted by saddlesore
I have two preferences that I have used considerably. The first is the one that Sitka Deer recomends and that is Helsman Spar varnish made by Minwax. This is actually a Urethane product. Do not thin it,but apply as it comes out of the can for the 1st three very thin coats. I don't pay much attention to looks as I am only trying to fill the pores, although I don't put it on heavy enough to cause runs or sags.
I then sand it down to ALMOST bare wood. When I get a little wood color in the white dust from the varnish I stop. I repeat until I have all the pores filled.
I then cut the varnish with about 20% tung oil (not tung oil finish, pure tung oil). I apply and then wipe dry.Preferably applied and the wiped off until dry, waiting about 3 minutes (depending on ambient temperature and humidity.)
This takes 20-30 coats as it is a very thin layer. I lightly sand with fine paper after each just enough to break the finish. When I after about ten coasts you start to get a good looking finish and you keep it up until you are satisfied with it. Then set it aside for a week or so and then buff it out with pumice mixed with mineral oil. I suppose very fine auto body rubbing compound would work also.

Wiping dry after each coat will give you a hand rubbed oil finish ,but more durable. The buffing out will cut the gloss.

Another product is Arm-R Seal by a General. It is a polyurethane varnish with tung oil. I use the same method with it. I do not use the semi gloss or matte.

The biggest problem is guys want to get it done fast and this is one method that takes time.

Here is an old Ithaca double I made the stock for before I buffed it down.

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]



Very good looking work!


Mark Begich, Joaquin Jackson, and Heller resistance... Three huge reasons to worry about the NRA.
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 29,915
Likes: 10
Campfire Ranger
Offline
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 29,915
Likes: 10
Tru or tung oil with 15 to 20 hand rubbed layers applied over as many weeks. After the pores are filled, as little as 2 or 3 drops will be sufficient to complete a layer. Before and after pictures if possible,

Last edited by 1minute; 10/24/13.

1Minute
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 671
R
Campfire Regular
Offline
Campfire Regular
R
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 671
Originally Posted by Boise

Is it possible to use Permalyn or Custom Oil over a current Tru-Oil coat? I understand one would first need to sand but is it necessary to sand down past the Tru-Oil penetration?


I haven't tried that, so I'm not certain whether the latter is chemically compatible over the former. I personally would sand down to the wood just to be safe. The folks at Brownells may be able to provide an answer to this question.

http://item.brownells.com/brands/laurel-mountain-forge-products/index.htm


Ted
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 955
Campfire Regular
Offline
Campfire Regular
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 955
I have used Daly's SeaFin Teak Oil for many years, it was recommended by one of the top Gunsmiths in the area. It is from
Daly's Wood Finishing Products,3525 Stone Way, N. Seattle, Wa 98103. It is a Marine Oil Finish used for boat decks and trim. Gives a beautiful finish.

IC B2

Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 671
R
Campfire Regular
Offline
Campfire Regular
R
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 671
Originally Posted by Sitka deer
Originally Posted by Colorado1135
I have a claro walnut rifle stock that I need to put a finish on, it is raw wood right now and has been fitted/bedded to the action by a friend of mine. all I have to do is finish it, what is a good type/brand of wood finish to use and what should I avoid?
Wife said she doesn't care what it looks like, but it has really nice grain and I want that to show nicely.

any suggestions?
thanks in advance!


A few things to realize... Claro is almost always very large-pored. It will take some doing to fill those pores. Please, do NOT wet sand the wood to get sanding slurry to fill the pores! The slurry will dull any finish it is used with.

The old-time stockmakers wet-sanded but they were seldom using open-pored wood and very little slurry got into the pores. It was also a time when oil was not wasted. They hand rubbed it in because it was starting to cure and needed the heat from their hands to penetrate.



Also, NEVER use any Satin or Matte finish on stocks. The matting agents used are mostly silica and do nothing positive for the finish. They do lots of negatives though. Polish the surface after you are done to produce the finish you want. Buffing out with rottenstone in mineral oil on a felt rag works quickly and does a better job. Let the stock sit for at least a month before buffing it out.
art


I agree with that, however, I've used the same method whether the wood was Claro, American, English walnut, even laminated wood, with equally good results. I don't use a "matte" finish and in fact the finish I use (Permalyn sealer) is designated neither "matte" or "gloss." The level of sheen you get is dependent on the finishing method used. I don't begin wet sanding until the pores are completely filled, and I don't use the sanding slurry as a filler. Using the Permalyn sealer (or any sealer or oil, for that matter), I keep applying to the wood until the wood will soak up no more. I personally prefer the Permalyn sealer because it's thinner than either Tru Oil or tung oil and therefore wicks deeper into the pores. Once there is a built up sheen on top of the wood, then I start wet-sanding back down to wood level, but not below wood level, alternately wet-sanding a small area (using the finish itself as the wet sanding agent, along with wet/dry sandpaper in auto body finishing grades) and wiping the surface with a paper towel. I allow at least a day of cure time between each wet sanding step. I progress from 320, 400, 600, 800, and 1200 grits after I'm certain the wood is completely filled with finish. I use a gum eraser as a sanding block on curved surfaces, different sizes of rubber hose around wooden dowels for curved surfaces (shadowline cheekpieces, comb flutes) and a hardwood block on flat surfaces and around transitions where I want sharp corners (the top line of forend channels, ejection port chamfers). I don't use steel wool, as I've found it's really hard to ensure all the tiny pieces of steel wool are removed from the surface before reapplying finish, and those tiny pieces can get trapped into the finish. When all wet-sanding is done, I sometimes rub with rottenstone on a linseed oil soaked felt pad to even out the satin sheen. Either way, as a final step, I buff with a cotton t-shirt after the finish is well cured to bring out the final sheen.

Gunstock finishing is one of those things where "there's more than one way to skin a cat," and I've seen different methods and finishes used that produced equally excellent results.

Last edited by RifleDude; 10/24/13.

Ted
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 50,643
Likes: 1
Campfire Kahuna
Offline
Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 50,643
Likes: 1
Originally Posted by RifleDude
Originally Posted by Boise

Is it possible to use Permalyn or Custom Oil over a current Tru-Oil coat? I understand one would first need to sand but is it necessary to sand down past the Tru-Oil penetration?


I haven't tried that, so I'm not certain whether the latter is chemically compatible over the former. I personally would sand down to the wood just to be safe. The folks at Brownells may be able to provide an answer to this question.

http://item.brownells.com/brands/laurel-mountain-forge-products/index.htm


They can be used over one another without issue.


Mark Begich, Joaquin Jackson, and Heller resistance... Three huge reasons to worry about the NRA.
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 50,643
Likes: 1
Campfire Kahuna
Offline
Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 50,643
Likes: 1
Originally Posted by RifleDude
Originally Posted by Sitka deer
Originally Posted by Colorado1135
I have a claro walnut rifle stock that I need to put a finish on, it is raw wood right now and has been fitted/bedded to the action by a friend of mine. all I have to do is finish it, what is a good type/brand of wood finish to use and what should I avoid?
Wife said she doesn't care what it looks like, but it has really nice grain and I want that to show nicely.

any suggestions?
thanks in advance!


A few things to realize... Claro is almost always very large-pored. It will take some doing to fill those pores. Please, do NOT wet sand the wood to get sanding slurry to fill the pores! The slurry will dull any finish it is used with.

The old-time stockmakers wet-sanded but they were seldom using open-pored wood and very little slurry got into the pores. It was also a time when oil was not wasted. They hand rubbed it in because it was starting to cure and needed the heat from their hands to penetrate.



Also, NEVER use any Satin or Matte finish on stocks. The matting agents used are mostly silica and do nothing positive for the finish. They do lots of negatives though. Polish the surface after you are done to produce the finish you want. Buffing out with rottenstone in mineral oil on a felt rag works quickly and does a better job. Let the stock sit for at least a month before buffing it out.
art


I agree with that, however, I've used the same method whether the wood was Claro, American, English walnut, even laminated wood, with equally good results. I don't use a "matte" finish and in fact the finish I use (Permalyn sealer) is designated neither "matte" or "gloss." The level of sheen you get is dependent on the finishing method used. I don't begin wet sanding until the pores are completely filled, and I don't use the sanding slurry as a filler. Using the Permalyn sealer (or any sealer or oil, for that matter), I keep applying to the wood until the wood will soak up no more. I personally prefer the Permalyn sealer because it's thinner than either Tru Oil or tung oil and therefore wicks deeper into the pores. Once there is a built up sheen on top of the wood, then I start wet-sanding back down to wood level, but not below wood level, alternately wet-sanding a small area (using the finish itself as the wet sanding agent, along with wet/dry sandpaper in auto body finishing grades) and wiping the surface with a paper towel. I allow at least a day of cure time between each wet sanding step. I progress from 320, 400, 600, 800, and 1200 grits after I'm certain the wood is completely filled with finish. I use a gum eraser as a sanding block on curved surfaces, different sizes of rubber hose around wooden dowels for curved surfaces (shadowline cheekpieces, comb flutes) and a hardwood block on flat surfaces and around transitions where I want sharp corners (the top line of forend channels, ejection port chamfers). I don't use steel wool, as I've found it's really hard to ensure all the tiny pieces of steel wool are removed from the surface before reapplying finish, and those tiny pieces can get trapped into the finish. When all wet-sanding is done, I sometimes rub with rottenstone on a linseed oil soaked felt pad to even out the satin sheen. Either way, as a final step, I buff with a cotton t-shirt after the finish is well cured to bring out the final sheen.

Gunstock finishing is one of those things where "there's more than one way to skin a cat," and I've seen different methods and finishes used that produced equally excellent results.

The only point I would make is wet-sanding with finish is NEVER a good idea. You will leave stuff in the finish which does nothing positive for the finish and will impede depth and luster in the wood. The most expensive walnut stock blanks have tremendous depth when wet or finished... Putting stuff in front of it, namely those tiny sanding particles does not look as good.

It is too easy to test and prove for yourself to ignore it... Make a test piece with very good wood and compare.


Mark Begich, Joaquin Jackson, and Heller resistance... Three huge reasons to worry about the NRA.
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 671
R
Campfire Regular
Offline
Campfire Regular
R
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 671
There are several prominent custom stockmakers who wet sand using the finish as the wet sanding lubricant. Doing so guarantees there are no potential compatibility issues with the existing cured finish in the wood this way. I've seen people use soapy water, linseed oil, mineral spirits, all with good results. Using the finish as the sanding agent doesn't have any negative effects on the finish as long as you wet sand a small area, wipe clean with a paper towel, and repeat until you've covered the entire stock AND as long as the finish you're using is really thin. In my case, there is no thinner finish providing an oil finish look than Permalyn sealer. I use the exact method I learned from a gun stock finish video put out by custom stockmaker Joe Balickie, who is a legend in the custom gunstock world and ACGG member. His work stacks up against anyone's, especially his checkering. He wet sands with Permalyn sealer. John Bivins also uses the same method. Again, the key is to wipe the surface down as you go and carefully inspect the sheen on the surface during wet sanding.


Ted
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 671
R
Campfire Regular
Offline
Campfire Regular
R
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 671
Here's the video I was referring to. I learned a lot from it, and highly recommend it to anyone interested in gunstock finishing...

http://www.brownells.com/books-vide...videos/gunstock-finishing-prod45286.aspx


Ted
IC B3

Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 29,661
Likes: 5
E
efw Online Content
Campfire Ranger
Online Content
Campfire Ranger
E
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 29,661
Likes: 5
Originally Posted by Cartod
Danish oil!


Yeah I used a three-part concoction of Danish oil, spar varnish, and mineral spirits. The Danish oil allows future touch-ups, the spar varnish is water proof and UV resistant, and the mineral spirits keep it thin, spreadable, and self-flattening to minimize runs.

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

In my experience the problem w/ tru-oil is that it is water-permeable & will cloud up when exposed to a lot of moisture.

Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 671
R
Campfire Regular
Offline
Campfire Regular
R
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 671
Here's a description of a similar method to what I described that I'm sure produces equally good results, supposedly used by Phil Pilkington. I've heard good things about his finishes as well, but haven'tried them. The author and Phil both use the finish as the wet sanding agent, and the results look good.

http://www.firearmsforum.com/firearms/article/3037

I have no doubt your method also produces good results too, Sitka. Again, there are many ways to skin a cat, and folks tend to stick to what they've found works well for them.


Ted
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 671
R
Campfire Regular
Offline
Campfire Regular
R
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 671
http://www.riflemagazine.com/magazine/PDF/ri87partial.pdf
Good article describing a similar method here.


Ted
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 50,643
Likes: 1
Campfire Kahuna
Offline
Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 50,643
Likes: 1
I do not argue that lots of folks do it and they get good results... Lab tests show every time that the results are better when not wet sanded with finish.

Many Guild makers will not glass bed, for an example of accepting "good enough." Old methods die hard.


Mark Begich, Joaquin Jackson, and Heller resistance... Three huge reasons to worry about the NRA.
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 671
R
Campfire Regular
Offline
Campfire Regular
R
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 671
Really? Lab tests? There were actual lab tests done for the purpose of proving which application method produced a superior gunstock finish? Who conducted these tests?

I don't doubt your method works really well for you. As I said, everyone is a believer in whatever has produced good results for them in the past. However, I'd venture to say that the majority of the big name custom gunstock builders who produce "in the wood" finishes use the finish itself to wet sand. And I believe it's safe to say their results speak for themselves.

I believe fantastic results have more to do with the craftsman employing their method of choice in a skillful way and repeating that method many times than the actual method or finish used. There is no one method of finishing a gunstock that is proven superior over all others. If there were, all the masters of the craft would be using it. Everyone swears by what works for them, using methods they feel most comfortable with. But to claim point blank, without exception that it isn't a good idea to use the finish as the wet sanding agent has simply been proven false over and over again.



Ted
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 671
R
Campfire Regular
Offline
Campfire Regular
R
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 671
Having said all that, if you have "lab tests" that clearly show it's a bad plan to use the finish to wet sand with, please post that info, as I'm always anxious to improve and learn new things.

You do understand that the wet sanding is done AFTER the wood is completely filled, and it isn't adding any additional finish buildup onto the surface, right? As you wet sand, you're wiping the surface clean with a paper towel before moving onto another area to wet sand, and you should always be inspecting the surface carefully as you go. It's no different than using linseed oil with rottenstone or pumice on a felt pad to impart a satin sheen on the surface.

Last edited by RifleDude; 10/24/13.

Ted
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 4,320
1
Campfire Tracker
Offline
Campfire Tracker
1
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 4,320
Here is a method I have read about, but I have never tried it. It is close to all the other type finishses mentioned. Just another wway to skin a cat.

Firt, sand wood until a smooth as you can get it, using fine sand psper.

Next, either use an air compressor or wipe with a dry clean cloth to remove all dust.

Apply several coats of spar varnish, until the pores are filled.
After pore are filled lightly sand the dried spar varnish, removing all gloss. Wipe or blow all dust off of the wood.

This should leave a dull, but even finish. Hand rub several coats of TRU-Oil over the spar varnish, lightly sanding between coats to smooth and level Tru-Oil. After 10 or 15 hand rubbed coats, rubb down with mineral oil and a very fine rubbing compound, such as pumice or rottenstone. The Tru-Oil and the final rubbing is not to protet the wood. The spar varnish should do that. the oil, after rubbing is to give the stock that deep finish like the best of custom made stocks, and English guns.

Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 671
R
Campfire Regular
Offline
Campfire Regular
R
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 671
Sounds like that will work well too.

I always "whisker" the wood before applying any finish. You can do this by wetting the surface of the stock down, then taking a torch and LIGHTLY and QUICKLY run it across the surface to raise the grain and cause "whiskers" to emerge on the surface. Don't hold the torch in any one place for very long, to avoid "burning" the surface of the wood with black spots. Sand the whiskers down and repeat a couple times. You will note after about the 3rd time that the wood doesn't "whisker up" so much anymore. The heat also opens the pores to permit more sealer to penetrate deeper by capillary action as well.

Then proceed with filling the pores as you normally would.

Supposedly by doing so, it prevents the wood from moving as much later, since you're compressing the surface somewhat during the shaping and sanding steps prior to finish application.

Last edited by RifleDude; 10/24/13.

Ted
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 125
B
Campfire Member
Offline
Campfire Member
B
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 125
I tried this method worked really well and fast.I mixed a few drops at a time about 50 50 and rubbed till it was dry.
http://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=331108

Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 50,643
Likes: 1
Campfire Kahuna
Offline
Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 50,643
Likes: 1
Originally Posted by RifleDude
Having said all that, if you have "lab tests" that clearly show it's a bad plan to use the finish to wet sand with, please post that info, as I'm always anxious to improve and learn new things.

You do understand that the wet sanding is done AFTER the wood is completely filled, and it isn't adding any additional finish buildup onto the surface, right? As you wet sand, you're wiping the surface clean with a paper towel before moving onto another area to wet sand, and you should always be inspecting the surface carefully as you go. It's no different than using linseed oil with rottenstone or pumice on a felt pad to impart a satin sheen on the surface.


The finishing industry has been testing every imaginable combination of materials and processes for many decades in labs. I have spent a tremendous amount of time doing exactly that. I have applied literally hundreds of finish combinations on wood and tested the results afterward.

Wet-sanding with finish is not new and not used only on stocks.

The tests included waterproofness testing against both frank water and vapor, wear resistance, hardness, appearance, and many, many more.

Most lab testing is designed to make a more marketable product, not a better one. Application methods drive most of the research at this point. If there were suddenly a shortage of the current ingredients in finish they would start spending a lot of money on finding cheaper alternatives. Until then the ingredients are very well known and applications and mixtures are the focus.



Mark Begich, Joaquin Jackson, and Heller resistance... Three huge reasons to worry about the NRA.
Page 2 of 3 1 2 3

Moderated by  RickBin 

Link Copied to Clipboard
AX24

586 members (10gaugeman, 12344mag, 10ring1, 163bc, 1234, 17CalFan, 62 invisible), 2,283 guests, and 1,319 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Statistics
Forums81
Topics1,192,995
Posts18,499,956
Members73,984
Most Online11,491
Jul 7th, 2023


 


Fish & Game Departments | Solunar Tables | Mission Statement | Privacy Policy | Contact Us | DMCA
Hunting | Fishing | Camping | Backpacking | Reloading | Campfire Forums | Gear Shop
Copyright © 2000-2024 24hourcampfire.com, Inc. All Rights Reserved.



Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5
(Release build 20201027)
Responsive Width:

PHP: 7.3.33 Page Time: 0.118s Queries: 55 (0.011s) Memory: 0.9264 MB (Peak: 1.0611 MB) Data Comp: Zlib Server Time: 2024-05-09 14:20:29 UTC
Valid HTML 5 and Valid CSS