Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunter's Campfire The Indian slaughter you seldom hear about.

It's better to be a winner than a loser.

It's what happens when immigration goes unchecked


http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...m-europe-discovered-america-7447152.html

With my work in traditional archery I have done a lot of research on Ishi.

The paid Indian hunters switched to pistols when they were blowing the brains out of the Indian kids hiding in caves on Mt. Lassen.

Many years later Ishi walked down off that mountain; �The Last of his Tribe.�

Everyone in his world had been killed directly or indirectly by the white man.
And he forgave us.

It was the California government who paid those bounties.

I wonder if the Mexicans hang their heads in shame about killing all those folks in the Alamo?

Much as I respect Jared Diamond...



how much animal protein are we talking in terms of grams per day? Westerners commonly think animal consumption on the scale of steaks and hamburgers, or buffalo feasts like on "Dances With Wolves". I've experienced three years of a diet where just a couple of fish or meat scraps were served with just one of the three meals each day. I'd guess about ten dressed mice carcasses a week would have easily equalled that amount (and not far off, wild rodents were a common item on the menu).




Here's Diamond in 1992, estimating 20 million in North America followed by a 95% decline due to disease.

http://discovermagazine.com/1992/oct/thearrowofdiseas137

20 million is the same order of magnitude as other estimates (55 million is the highest estimate I can recall).

And 5% after De Soto would imply a 400% increase over the subsequent two centuries when Indian populations were still just an estimated 20% of original numbers. Not a bad rate of increase in view of the repeated epidemics that continued to occur.



Just wondering about the terminology: Back to those same Cherokees, a people actually assembled from 17th Century post-epidemic remnants of earlier tribes. At some point they were in bark longhouses, stone and bone tools etc...

By the mid 18th Century they were receiving tons of European goods annually (of which weaponry was just a part), and by the early 19th Century they were still self-governing, but had plantations, carpenters, blacksmiths, schools, printers, a written language and a newspaper.

..and one of their principal chiefs, Crazy James Vann, was one of the wealthiest men in America.

But they were still independent enough that politically they were a self-governing foreign entity and as such were expelled en-masse during removal.

At what point prior to Removal would you say they were assimilated into White society?

Birdwatcher

Well, ten years later Texians and Americans would kill several times that number of Mexican civilians in Mexico, of which grown men were but a fraction, and men bearing arms even less yet..

Lay the slaughter of mostly very recent illegal immigrant male combatants attempting to forcibly remove 20% of Mexico from that country at Santa Anna's feet if ya want, but no one accuses him of killing women and children, not in that Second Texas War of Independence anyway (the first one, involving about as many combatants from the same places fighting in the about the same areas, occurred in 1813. Spain won.).

The greater point being this historical he said, she said can go on forever.

Birdwatcher

About like the Irish up until the 1500's or so, prob'ly for the same reasons.

Was Daniel Boone primitive too? He lived in the same locations as the Indians in question at the same time, at pretty much the exact same technological level as the Indians. Never heard a word about him mining, smelting or forging any of his own iron or steel.

Birdwatcher

That's certainly an interesting perspective you have there. I wonder if you feel the same way about the Nazis and Hitler, or Stalin and the Red Army, or The Japanese in Manchuria? After all, it happened several decades ago, and we really don't understand it. It should just be history without blame, right?

Like the hordes of Indians washed away the whites, enabled by cap, ball and cannon so the whites now are now to be wiped out by the blacks and browns enabled by the liberals and commies of Hollywood and the forces of our own .gov.

the last 10,000 years of this type of behavior is easily and effortlessly described and explained in Daniel Quinn's cult classic My Ishmael.

boiled down to it's essence, it says the Naked Ape with the best technology wins everytime.

Mike, I'm not sure what we're arguing about here.

But to amplify the discussion about food crops... protein content isn't the sole determinant of a crop's value to a society. It's a cost-benefit analysis. As Diamond says in his book, p. 151:

"A modern nutritionist would have applauded these seven eastern U.S. crops. ALl of them were high in protein... Two of them, sunflower and sumpweed, were also high in oil. Sumpweed would have been a nutritionist's dream, being 32 percent protein and 45 percent oil. Why aren't we still eating those dream foods today? ... these crops suffered from seriou disadvantages in other respects... sumpweed is wind-pollinated relative of ragweed... [that] has a strong odor objectionable to most people and that handling it can cause skin irritation."

It was only after Mexican crops (corn, beans, and squash) were imported to the eastern U.S. around AD 1100 that agriculture began to intensify along the Mississippi River and its tributaries. But even then the farmers were limited by "...five major disadvantages vis-a-vis Eurasian agriculture: widespread dependence on protein-poor corn, instead of Eurasias diverse package of protein-rich cereals; hand planting of individual seeds, instead of broadcast sowing; tilling by hand instead of plowing by animals, which enables one person to cultivate a much larger area, and which also permits cultivation of fertile but tough soils and sods that are difficult to till by hand; lack of animal manuring to increase soil fertility; and having to rely on just human muscle power, instead of animal power, for agricultural tasks such as threshing, grinding, and irrigation."

That's not the point, and if you re-read my post you'll see I said that western Plains Indians had gone from using stone age technology to wholesale adoption of iron age technology in less than 25 years. I never said anything about assimilation into white society.

I've had a good deal of experience in interaction with northern Plains Indians over the past 40 years or so. I can't speak for them, but it's my impression that they are far from "assimilated".

But they've adopted and adapted to the use of modern technology with alacrity.

All that is tragic. But, small potatoes if you know and or think about the Comanche's.

What did the U.S. Military call them?

Anyone?

Anyone?

Redskins?

I'm not talking about individuals. I am talking about culture, and their progress. Europe had passed into the iron age long, long, long ago. The Americas had not reached that point. Indians in America were not living in the iron age prior to the settlement of Europeans. Simple fact. Ergo, they were in what? The bronze age? No. They were in the stone age. Period. Irrefutable fact. I don't know why that is so bitter a pill to swallow. I'm not saying they were ape-men, or if you believe in evolution that they were further down the ladder. Simply that they were in the stone age prior to European settlement.

That is not an opinion, it is a fact.

Doc,

Jared Diamond writes some interesting books, but is not the last word, or even the first, on a lot of this stuff. A lot of the eastern seaboard may have been literally DECIMATED, before significant contact.

Epidemics of measles, smallpox, etc, the diseases the europeans had some resistance too, from years of animal husbandry, spread like wildfire, from indian to indian, band to band, tribe to tribe, so that indians who never saw a whiteman died from disease.

A good book on pre-columbian populations is "1491".

Sycamore

I am amazed that their epidemiologists did not discover a cure before the boat loads of evil white men came ashore in larger numbers. What with them being such an advanced society and all...........

where are you getting that from?

Sycamore

Stone and copper

Target?