Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Express Rifles and Big Bores Only It seems the .458WM really is underpowered and doesn't penetrate.

Yep, according to this article I stumbled across.

'Safety in bear country protective measures and bullet performance at short range.'

www.fs.fed.us/pnw/pubs/gtr152

In the article they do a ballistic comparison between various high powered rifles including the .460Wby, .458WM, .375H&H, .338WM, .300WM, .300Wby, 8mmRM and 45/70 to name a few

Here are some quotes from the article;

"In overall ballistic performance, the .458 ranked
first. Bullet penetration was the deepest
of all the cartridges tested - average
depth, 19 inches. Striking energy was
79 percent of the .460 Weatherby (rank-
ed second), part of which may be attrib-
uted to the extra 10 gr of bullet weight
in the .458. The bullet expanded well
(4.6 times) and retained 82 percent of
the unfired weight. The 510-gr Winches-
ter factory bullets used in the .458 did
not fragment, but the 500-gr bullets of
the .460 Weatherby did. This was the
major reason for the first-place ranking.
Recoil in the 9.4-lb rifle was 54.7 ft-lb or
about 71 percent of that of the .460 in a
rifle that was 1.3 lb heavier. The lesser
recoil in a lighter rifle and better bullet
performance make the .458 Winchester
preferable to the .460 Weatherby. A
short-barreled, bolt-action .458 would
be an excellent rifle for an experienced
rifleman. Shortening the barrel to 22 or
even 20 inches should not reduce ballis-
tic performance much. Any weight re-
duction, however, would increase
recoil."

This is what was written about the .460 Wby which must be noted was loaded to Lott velocities;

The .460 Weatherby Magnum cartridge ranked
second in overall performance. The
large-caliber, heavy bullet at relatively
high velocity had good, but not the deep-
est, penetration. Although the chrono-
graphed velocity did not approach the
advertised velocity, bullet energy ex-
ceeded that of the .458 Winchester by
over 1300 ft-lb. Average retained bullet
weight was 65 percent of the unfired
weight. The bullets had a tendency to
fragment. It appears the high striking
energy exceeded the design limits of
the bullet at the short test range.
Cross-sectional area expansion was
adequate and overall bullet perform-
ance good, but not the best.
The high overall performance of the
.460 Weatherby was obtained in a
heavy-recoiling, 10.7-lb rifle with a
26-inch barrel. The heavy
recoil made it very uncomfortable to shoot.
The stock shape, heavy weight,
and long barrel detract from the utility
of the rifle in the heavy bush of coastal
Alaska. This could be ameliorated if the
rifle were remodeled, but shortening
the barrel to 20 inches would lower
velocity and energy. This might be
beneficial if it also reduced the
tendency of the bullet to fragment;
however, there is little reason to reduce
the .460 if a .458 is available.
A short-barreled .460 would have tre-
mendous muzzle blast, and the recoil
of a .460 Weatherby less than 10 lb in
weight would be so severe that it would
be difficult for the shooter to recover
from the recoil and operate the bolt to
rapidly chamber a second cartridge."

I think the above statement goes to show the importance of premium projectiles in DG calibers.

And finally to sum it up;

"A .458 Winchester Magnum with a 510gn
soft-point bullet. For a shooter who can
handle the recoil of this cartridge, a
bolt-action rifle in .458 Winchester
Magnum is the surest weapon available."

So there you go. Sure, it's an old article but is was done in an unbiased manner and all calibers were fired at the same medium and at the same distance... and the .458 held it's own... just as some of knew it would.
I have no intention of opening up a can of worms in regards to the .458 being better than this or that, but I do believe that the .458WM is now beyond criticism. It now does exactly what it was st out to do and thats to fire a 500gn bullet at 2150 fps. This is what it was designed to do, this is what it does and this is all it needs to do. History has shown time and time again that a 500gn bullet at 2150 fps is absolutely adequate for all that can be hunted. And this it does with no drama's or horror stories that have (rightly or wrongly) plagued this cartridge. It really is all it was meant to be.

most the piss poor penetration with the 458 were because of squib loads.....either the ball powder had been through one two many heat cycles in the vehicle causing the properties of the powder to change occasionally even turning it more or less into one solid lump of "charcoal" OR occasionally a round that had spent way to long at the bottom of the mag got its bullet pounded deeper into the case horribly compressing the powder and causing issues...my understanding this usually happened in cropping scenarios where they kept topping off the magazine and the bottom round would actually be in ther for a dozen or two shots....

That report is 30 years old. Projectiles have evolved since then that would change the comparison results no doubt eg the Woodleigh Hydrostatics provide significant penetration.

In both chamberings

Luv it> I have a custom shop rem 458 wm and I hunt heavey timber in bear areas for Elk! 400g bullet and re 7 and at close range it will stop all north american game in its tracks!> the longer range out to 300 yards MAx is the 375 H&H and will sheer Iron plates like butter at 100 yards doing 2700 fps!Enjoy.

Slower is better at close range!> do I want to hit a bear at 2200Fps with a 45 cal or do I want to hit it at 2700 fps 375!>you figure it out!Enjoy.

With AA2230 powder, there is no trick to getting 2250 fps with 450 grain TSXs or solids, or 2200 fps with 500 grain ones if you prefer. The "extra velocity" the .460 adds to that gains you nothing but more recoil, flinch, a reduced magazine capacity, and longer bolt throw.

This guy I hit at about 2,520 fps @ 97 yds. MV was about 2,750. 300gr NP. .375 Wby. One shot / one kill. 9'2" boar went 25ft and stopped moving in less than 2 seconds. MV does not equal impact. FWIW, it worked pretty much about as good as is physically possible on a huge brown bear.



I think it would be almost literally impossible to do better with a slower .45 cal. Maybe the giant bear only goes 20 ft.?

http://www.ar15.com/archive/topic.html?b=10&f=7&t=639673

Another link

It's no secret what my favorite is

I can't imagine a pure big-bear hunting gun that would be better than one chambered in a .458 WM. I just am skeptical that it's dramatically better for BB than a well-made .375 round going at about 2,500 fps. Mine tore all the way through the animal, including some bone, and disappeared after blowing up a lot of tissue near its path.

I imagine that the .458 would be better for elephant or buffalo, but I'm not too concerned that I need to improve on the .375 for bear. Most people, including my guide, I know consider it to be more than necessary.

Just for my own personal needs (I had wolf tags when hunting BB), when I got my BB, I swapped out the 300gr NPs for this:

375 WEATHERBY � NOSLER 260 GRAIN ACCUBOND:
Rng
Yds / Vel. / Impact / KE / 10 mph Drift
000 / 2975 / -1.75 / 5110 / 0.00
050 / 2868 / 0.94 / 4749 / 0.59
100 / 2769 / 2.56 / 4427 / 1.07
150 / 2672 / 3.06 / 4122 / 1.87
200 / 2578 / 2.32 / 3837 / 3.02
250 / 2485 / 0.28 / 3565 / 4.52
300 / 2395 / -3.18 / 3312 / 6.4
350 / 2307 / -8.16 / 3073 / 8.68
400 / 2221 / -14.77 / 2848 / 11.37
450 / 2136 / -23.16 / 2634 / 14.51
500 / 2054 / -33.44 / 2436 / 18.11

(I've checked at an outdoor range; it hits at 3" high at 150yds and 3" low at 300 yds). I knew that the round hit 2" left of aim vs. the 300 NP in my rifle from firing countless rounds of both. I clicked the windage on the scope 8 times; shot it a few times to check; and, bingo, my BB rifle has morphed into a nearly-perfect rifle for shooting wolves out to 350 yds or so. I just like the versatility.

I have seen a lot of big bears die and personally shot them with a lot of calibers from 30-06's,.338's,9.3's, .375's, .416's as well as the 505 Gibbs and the more I use different rifles the more impressed I am with the 458 Win.

That says a lot right there..

Good lord..I cant get over the size of the head on those things. I have a mark x 458 win myself..someday i'd like to try it out on a brownie.

They have to have a big head so they can fit all those teeth in there

Right. I'm afraid that you're missing my point. I agreed in saying above that: "I can't imagine a pure big-bear hunting gun that would be better than one chambered in a .458 WM." Check.

I'm not disagreeing with that concept. Just saying that the 300gr NP or the like in a .375 is pretty darned good. And, with a quick change of cartridge, it can shoot flat trajectories out to 350 yds on other things when while your bear hide is salting. And at 350 yds, it will hit like a 30-06 will at the muzzle. I was talking about having a cartridge that is more-than-competent (even if not quite as ideal as a .458 for short to moderate-range bear hunting), but also is versatile in ways the .458 just can't match.

Nothing more really needs to be said...

Wont argue that the 375 is more versatile.But you are selling the 458 short. When i was younger I used mine for just about everyting, 350-400 yards is no trick with the 458. 350 grain X at 2500 fps was one I used a lot.

I also dont think Phil was arguing with what you said, it was simply a reply..

Have shot a couple (that's about all I wanted) @ 2250+ with 500 Hornady's and AA2230C! They will get your attention. Pard backed load down to 2170-2200 range, really does hell to a 5hp electric motor!

With my .458 WM using the 500 gr Hornady RN IL bullet, I get clear thru penetration broadside on moose shoulder at an impact speed of about 1800 fps (2000 fps MV - really no need to launch this bullet any faster.

With my .416 Ruger using the 300 gr X bullet, I didn't get clear thru penetration broadside on moose shoulder at an impact speed of about 2400 fps (2700 fps MV).

Quickly fatal in both instances. However, if the shot angle is unfavourable, I would prefer to have my .458 WM with 500gr bullets since it penetrates better in my experience - more wallop to smash through whatever due to the bullet's heavy weight, larger diameter and sturdy construction.

The flatter trajectory of the faster .416 Ruger is preferred of course for long range situations (generally the exception rather than the norm - I try to stalk as close as possible ).

Here's the recovered .416 caliber 300gr X bullet -

So I Take it all the owners of the 45-70 must just throw their rifles into the BIN> they must be really LACKING!