Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Bowhunting Frontal Chest shot

I agree. Double misery is wounding a big buck you nor anyone else will ever get a chance at again.

It would be a real downer to go to ones stand the next week and know the only things you had a chance to see that day were the dinks that once got out of mr bigs way.

Once I was on a ledge above a cliff by a big dry wash and a buck came in toward me. I shot, he jerked his head and the arrow hit him in the jaw. Luckily it continued into his throat and he only ran about 60 yards. It wasn't pretty.

Most deer facing you are alert, or will be after drawing a bow, and won't be stupidly standing with a stare when the arrow gets there.

There has been a lot of detail and information shard here. Not sure I can add much else.

However, this front on chest shot is such a temptation, and such low odds of success when compared to a more traditional broadside, and quartering shot.

In my early years as a PH when this shot became available my hunters would take it without hesitation, and with my blessing. Over the years, I found myself with high levels of follow up tracking and lost game. Even though the animals seem to have been hit hard and set back on their heels so to speak.

This goes for both gun and bow shots. It seemed odd to me that with all the " good stuff" right there in front of you that this could be anything other then a great place to shoot game.

After several long tracking jobs and lost game, my interest got the best of me. At the skinning shed I looked closely at the anatomy and the possible reasons for this.

What I found was interesting. Broadside shots have about 2" or so of penetration needed to enter the cavity and disrupt the organs, heart/ lungs. Those organs have virtually zero capacity to slow down a bullet or an arrow. Lungs especially are no resistance to penetration at all. Then you have the exit side, which is another 2" or so of muscle and hide. So over all you may have 4-6" of actual heavy muscle, ribs, and fat to get through. Regardless of the diameter of the body.

Comparing this to a frontal chest shot. If the lungs are the intended target, then you must shoot through the neck and throat. The Neck is all solid thick muscle. Especially on a strong adult male with either heavy horns or antlers. The Lungs are much higher in the body then the heart. If you're shooting for the heart, then you have a tennis ball sized target behind a thick wall of muscle rib bones, and fat. Miss right or left by an inch, and you're outside the ribcage with no lethal organs hit. same if you hit low by an inch. Hit high you may slice off the pipes providing blood else where, or way too high the lungs.

However, a dead on heart shot will put the bullet or broadhead into the grass bag which is quite good at stopping just about any bullet or arrow. This leaves you with a single hole, maybe 4" or on larger game 10" from the heart, and internal cavity. The blood will not leak out of that single hole very easily. It tends to pool up in the bottom of the cavity, and without lungs hit will not be spraying out the sides.

This shot is without any doubt the most tempting and alluring shot on any game. I have tried to convince myself to take this shot more times then I can count. When My hunters have finally pleaded with me to let them take it, I will often relent and give in. At the moment I agree, my brain is already a buzz with:

" You idiot" you know better then to do this, you will be tracking the rest of the day"

After the shot the animal runs out of sight and we give it a moment. Then a walk down to have a look see for blood. Sure enough we find a spot or two, then after a half hour I inevitably ask:

" How did that shot feel"
I find those a often the the first words out of my mouth in these situations. What It really means in my head is "Wow this is bad, we are gonna be on this a while"

Others opinions and quantifiable risks regarding their own skills, and ability to sleep at night are up to them. Many will have done this once or twice with success and feel it's a fine shot. If that were my experience I would too. With dozens of animals shot this way the odds clearly become poor. After folks see enough resolution on things those opinions begin to carry more weight.

For me, the frontal chest shot is a calculated risk. I view it as a last resort, or an only remaining option with time running out. I think this is the sports fan equivalent of " Hail Mary pass" at the end of a game.

As I type this I can honestly say I would not turn this down for myself under some conditions. It is not going to be a confidence inspiring decision, or something I would just take matter of fact. It's a shot fraught with complications, you don't grasp until that animal is missing.

Thanks for all your input. What Rost said is exactly what went through my mind at the time. Little room for error with that shot and I wasn't going to risk not finding that deer. I thought, theres lots of bone to deflect an arrow. Bow hunting is a low percentage game we play anyway...Im glad to hear some have had good results with this shot.

In this situation, I was rattling and this buck popped out of the woods +\-100yds away. On a trot, he cut across the corner of a cut corn field and stopped 25yds in front of me on the edge of the woodline. He was dialed in and on high alert. Deer took 10steps into the woods and stopped. Now hes facing me at 15yds, under my stand, looking for the source of the sound. I'm 18ft up in a Burr Oak. It would have been a steeply angled shot. He wasn't looking at me, but looking past my tree. I drew, waiting for a broadside shot. He starting getting shifty and I knew he was going to bolt. Shoot him in the chest or let him run and maybe get a shot another day. I let him walk, I have no problem with that. I may take that shot next time if it feels right.

Please explain why frontals are now considered to be more effective now thanks to Bowsite and archery talk though? Thanks

[However, a dead on heart shot will put the bullet or broadhead into the grass bag which is quite good at stopping just about any bullet or arrow. This leaves you with a single hole, maybe 4" or on larger game 10" from the heart, and internal cavity. The blood will not leak out of that single hole very easily. It tends to pool up in the bottom of the cavity, and without lungs hit will not be spraying out the sides. ]

This ^^^, is very true and enlightening, and facts I haven't heretofore considered, to my chagrin. I can imagine a quite restricted blood flow through all those different tissues on a moving animal.

The big buck I arrowed from the big live oak as he came down independence creek gave me real concerns to find. He came by angling from right to left and in front of me, to go under and to my left. I shot while leaning my waist over a limb above and just toward him from the big limb I stood on. The thunderhead hit a little far back of the shoulder and a little low, angled down and out the opposite flank.

The blood trail was great at first but quickly disappeared Totally. If it hadn't rained a couple days before he would have been hard to find. When I found him about 125-150 yards down the bottom, there was an almost soccer ball sized 'ball' of guts hanging out the exit hole preventing any loss of blood from the wound.

Long ago, before modern sights I had a sight with pins exposed on an 80 lb Oneida Eagle I had special ordered. I unknowingly hung and bent the top pin after climbing a big white oak the deer were using in East Texas. A big doe came in late that evening and I made a bad shot hitting a little low and far back again. I gave her two hours while getting help after having trouble trailing her after dark After a mile of miserable trailing for a couple hours that night with help, we found her after the raccoons or a skunk had worked on her. The arrow had gone through the rear aspect of only one lung, but fairly well I thought. I was too tired to notice any plugging , but we did trail her up by blood. A piece of lung can sure result in a miserable evening.

This is not about calculated risk. I know at close range this is going to be lethal if I aim correctly. I passed the opportunity to shoot a buck like this years ago that was well over 200" and I regret not shooting him on level ground at 5 yards every time I think about it. My scenario was mostly hypothetical and I am just being completely honest. Sorry that pisses you off. The only reason I would not shoot a doe like this is I get LOTS of opportunities at mature does and when I shoot them I make every reasonable effort not to place my shot anywhere near the guts. It has nothing to do with whether I believe the shot is lethal. Maybe you live somewhere where 160" or better deer grow on trees?
I am friends with a lot of local bow-hunters and I never judge them, but it is simply dumbfounding how many times I hear them tell me they stuck a deer. Unlike me though, they seldom ever reflect on what went wrong and try to fix the problem whether is about more practice, better gear, etc. I have wounded less deer in my life with a bow than I can count on one hand and EVERY time I asked myself what went wrong and made an effort to make sure that result didn't happen again. I can tell you for a fact too many bow-hunters don't practice enough, they don't practice as they are dressed while hunting, they dull blades by shooting them into targets and they shoot ultra-light arrows that only belong on the 3D course.
Until you see me shoot, see how much I practice with all my weapons, and see the choices I make and don't make, you have no business calling the kettle black. My two cents.

Yep ,its individual opinions.

Any time you are shooting at a tiny target, on a moveable one, where the sound gets to teh deer 3 times or so faster than the arrow, I just flat think you have to take the highest percentage shot.

For me, I have NO regrets on passing shots at all. Never have and never will. I do have a couple of shots I"d like to have back those. Those bother me and always will.

5 yards would be hard to draw on unless in ground blind. At least IMHO. And unless on same level a frontal shot is totally out for me.

BTW there are not 160 class deer here. Period. Consider yourself lucky to see a 200 inch deer.

And if you just have to have him, I'd suggest a firearm instead.

You see you can aim correctly, you can release without flinching, and the deer can still move, especially if he is facing you at that range, he is bound to both SEE and HEAR the shot. For a golfball sized sweet spot, yep, I can hit that every time even at say 15 steps or so without sights on my recurve, but I'd not take that shot even with any bow around. Even though its a simple target.

I understand the theory on does, that you can always get another shot.

But IMHO whether you ever see deer X again or not, you don't have to go to your grave asking why did I take a marginal shot.

You'd be surprised in my hunter ed classes when I ask how far someone is practiced and would shoot at a doe. I'd wait till the 3rd and final class. Then show pics of a huge buck. Ask whats the max distance. Mind you I'd taken notes from their day one answers...
Its sick to see how many think that just because its a huge rack, they'll do something they would not do under normal circumstances.

And food for thought.. while I don't do it this way, IMHO if you want to take a chancy shot, do it on a doe, there are tons of them and will be more if you F it up.

Don't do it to a once in a lifetime buck. And if you can't get him, they you may screw up someone elses chance to cleanly take him. Or prevent him from further spreading his genes. I'm not so greedy that I have to take a shot. I was at one point in my youth though.

I"m glad I'm matured beyond that point.

You were on level ground and it was facing you totally unaware? You could have drawn the bow without alarming it?

If the answers to those questions are 'yes', I would probably shot, also. I have also spined relaxed SOUTHERN US white tails from up in a tree at 5 yards or less as they are PDQ in dropping at the shot, compared to their larger northern brothers (IMHO).

Still, I'd certainly not normally recommend it.

I am sorry to hear you didn't get that monster. Dayom.

Heck, if it had been me, I might have drawn and taken a running shot at it, not that I would condone or recommend that, but sometimes instinct and reaction intervenes over common sense.

Still, all in all, I figure the answers Rost and J Hack give would be the best and have much less chance of regret.

Thanks Hack, we were writing about the same time this morning. Great detailed info based on multiple experiences with frontal chest shots.

Eyeball... Running shot on a deer with a bow??!? You are better than me my man...

Yes, I was looking at putting up a stand where a narrow cornfield pinched into the creek bluff on the neighbors. That's when I noticed a basket rack standing out in the cornfield spring up like a scared cat. He tore ass out of the field and I thought "gee whiz, what's his deal?". Next thing I know, here comes a monster walking the along the outer bend in the cornfield towards me. I pick up my binoculars and see he is giant main-frame typical 12 with gobs of 2-3" stickers all over his brows, G2s, 3s & 4s. Like a crown of thorns. When he got to about 50 yards I drew back facing his direction while kneeling on the ground. He was totally in a trance, just moving along, head mostly down. At 5 yards, very slightly quartered towards, I could have drilled him right in the middle of the chest with an Easton 2315 and a 125 Thunderhead. I was still pretty green at bow-hunting and thought I could get away with slowly turning my bow into him until he was perfectly broadside. The second I starting moving he did a 180* faster than the blink of an eye. I couldn't believe it. Nor could he, he ran across the field and up the hillside on my Dad's farm and stopped. For the next few minutes, from the cover of some really thick brush, he stomped and blew at me. It was obvious he realized just how close to death he came and apparently he needed to let me know it. Realistically, I will probably never see another buck like him, let alone potentially getting a shot.

By the way, if I were teaching a class to new hunters, I also would only recommend a double-lung shot regardless of the type of weapon used or the sex of the animal. I can only think of two times I have not shot for both lungs. One was the doe I mentioned originally and an old buck I shot years ago right up the crapper on the run. It was mostly luck and it worked beautifully but I simply would never attempt that again.

Probably not. If you wish to be amazed look up some of the old movies of the two dentists brothers from Montana. They were much better than I ever hoped to be and routinely killed driven white tails running through woods.

At the moment I can't remember their names but they were pretty famous and i'm sure many---, yeah Gene Wensel.

I wish you would have gotten that buck!!

Slightly quartered I'd personally probably take in that situation. Assuming I was thinking it a good shot that I could slip in through the shoulder meat but miss the ball joint. That shot isn't much different than quartering away. Especially with you at full draw and the deer relaxed.

But I still will not ever take a full on frontal shot again. If for some reason I just have to, I"d going to attempt to break the neck just under the jaw instead. DOn't like either one a single bit but would be much more comfortable with the neck.

So are 60, 80, 100 yard shots.

It seems that as the internet grows, ethics decrease, under the guise of having to be better or kill more than the next guy, at ANY cost.

Amen! For too many people, the bulk of their "experience" comes from time behind a computer monitor or sitting in an easy chair. The quest for a measurable buck leaves them with much less field experience when it comes to shot placement, follow up, and general deer behavior during and after the shot. They simply haven't shot many deer and there is no substitute for real time learning. I've killed a pile of deer with the bow, both recurve and compound and would not take that shot. No doubt it could work perfectly but there's way too much room for error. Our job first and foremost in taking the life of an animal (big buck or yearling doe) is to do so as quickly and humanely as is possible and a frontal shot with a bow does not pass muster.

FWIW, hitting a vital size target at 100 yards with a bow was easily possible way on back. And for me, it was a doable deal in the 80s even.

The problem was knowing the distance, learning the wind, and lots of practice. Plus due to TOF the animal was often not there or not in the same "pose" as it was when we released the arrow.

As such we learned that it was not really, for us, an ethical thing to do. At least for our deer.

The internet has good and bad things... and one has to know how to sort through the BS. But if you could consistently touch arrows at 20-30 yards like a good archer should, then you triple/quadruple the distance you are still shooting grapefruit or so size groups.

CKR, very good post!

You are (or were) a HP shooter, so you "get it" on long range, TOF, wind, etc. Let's use that for some comparisons.

What were your groups like at 600 slow fire?

How do you think they would've been if I was the guy in the pits, and every now and then, randomly, I'd decide to push the target frame up or down a bit?

Your hold was solid, your sight picture was good, but WHOOPS, the target moved.

At 80-100 yards, with a bow, there's just way too much chance for that. And if you blew a shot, well, you lost a few points and maybe didn't leg that day. Same thing on a living bleeding animal has much different consequences.

And arrows are much more sensitive to a very slight change in wind compared to a supersonic VLD bullet.

(BTW, not necessarily directed at you, but your post and background serve as a good example)



To reinforce my last sentence above...

Although this is sliding off topic a bit, there is a big difference between hunting skill and shooting skill.

The best hunters I know in Archery would not shoot 50 yards or beyond. Most will shoot 35 and under. Nearly all make the kills they do at 25 and less.

These guys would never win a 3D contest, probably not even place in the top 5 or 10. These guys would not make a shot in the vitals at 50 yards more then 50% of the time. However these guys will kill Elk and Deer every year with a bow, and are not complaining about the one they lost, or that the blood trail ran out.

The other side of that is those folks that shoot groups at 60 yards and 80 yards with brilliant accuracy. These guys don't have the same hunting success, and usually are the ones talking about the one that the blood trail ran out, the broadhead was bad, or some branch wind or other comment made the shot poor.

There is a reason most archery hunters have a passion and a love for the pursuit of this. The closeness, the intimacy with wildlife to be right there in their face. This is the thrill the excitement. It never gets old to be able to get this close to wild game.

The guy that tells me he killed his animal at 60 yards does not impress me one little bit. It's actually a sad comment that he was unable to get the enjoyment from this that he should have. (Great shooter VS Great hunter)

The guy that tells me he shot his XXXX animal at 15-18 yards, makes me respect and admire him. This guy "gets it". (Great hunter VS great shooter)

The difference is usually that it is far easier to spend time in shooting practice then it is in the bush. Of all the time spent actually hunting, the shot is seconds of that total time. But the search for game is almost all the rest. Yet folks tend to spend almost all their time with shooting practice, and minimal time in the bush. Is that just wrong? If folks spent time actually learning travel routes, habits, populations, and the actual small areas of habitat they use. It would be much easier to put yourself in the position of success at close range.

Unfortunately folks spend all the time trying to shoot further to compensate for the lack of time in the bush trying to reach out and hit game that they did not understand well enough to get closer.

Archery is a close range event. That is the whole design and the achievement that goes with bow hunting. No matter if you shoot a recurve or the latest fastest compound these animals we hunt, are still faster then the arrow.

All very good points.

An aside to point number two above... it is also "cooler", and much easier, to impress with your buddies with your long range skills on the range, than when nobody is with you in the woods to see the blown shot or wounded animal.

Lots of guys hunt, and shoot, for the wrong reasons...

Cold bore, my groups were generally cleans at 600 with the service rifle at the end of my career. ANd yse you bobbling the target would cost me. I"ve even seen the targets bobble when in the pits and on the scope on the line... one of those things....

Your reply or post helps make the point I was trying to also. Just because you have the mechanics, doesn't mean you need to try it on game. BUT today and tommorrow and even minute to minute, my max distance with a variety of weapons, changes.

RE lots of guys hunt and shoot for the wrong reasons, while I understand, I totally disagree. For years now to me, its if its legal, then you have to deal with yourself and your ethics and not me or anyone else. Trying to force those ideas on someone else is wrong IMHO.

BUT telling them or giving them some BTDT info is not wrong.

If we all hunted for the same reason, there would be too many of us in the field in the same time and place all at once.

I think it's important to be both a good hunter and a good shooter. The reason I practice shooting all year around is so that on the very few occasions I see a great buck I don't miss the opportunity because I failed to make the shot. Shooting farther on the range equates to "chip shots" in the field.

I made a front shot once because I had to, and I knew I could make it.

The shot went right down the bottom of the neck through the right lung and stopped in the deers right shoulder / elbow area.

When the buck started running the arrow literally was bouncing around the inside of this rack, he finally jerked his leg up hard enough that it came back out through the front of his chest. He only made another 10 yards and passed.

Spot