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BW,

The OP requested info about western history........not the life story of Texas. Texas is and has always been a tame southern state, not a wild western one.

Never been anything wild and woolly about it except the size of its boundaries and the size of the egos of it's residents.........which appears to have gone unchanged over the last 400 years.

If you read about the history of Washington state Goggle Murray Morgan three of his books are currently listed on Amazon, all three are worth the read. They are Skid Road the story of the settling of Seattle and some of it's more notorious characters, Puget's Sound dealing with the settling of Tacoma and the South Sound all the way down to Portland and the third book The Last Wilderness dealing with the settling of the Olympic Peninsula.

Some of the stories related in the books are hilarious. one story in particular is in The Last Wilderness it is the story of the Great Elk Hunt out of Port Angles at the beginning of the last century. It tells the story of one of the Elk Hunters, the gentleman in question decided to participate in the hunt he was dressed in Red he even painted his shoes and rifle red, he also took mule or a donkey on the hunt, it was also painted with red stripes like a zebra, to carry his Elk out.

On the opening morning of the hunt he was shot and killed so they loaded him on the pack animal to bring him out and someone shot and killed the mule on the trip out.

Ole Gabe could not write but his name is all over Wy. Some say he had pards that could write who did it for him. He was in lots of encounters and seemed to try to help his fellow Mountain men and Soldiers. He took Caspar Collins around to the Indian tribes to meet Crazy Horse and a few other Chiefs. The Sioux liked the Little Solder Chief, as his dad, Colonel William Collins was the Big Soldier Chief. I do these stories on my wagon trains. historictrailswest.com Great thread. Thanks to all of you that have suggested titles of books. Strange Man Of the Oglala by Mari Sandoz is a good read about the Indian battles of Crazy Horse.

Rufus,

good suggestion. the book you recommended is actually a biography of Powell, by Wallace Stegner ( a good bio, by the way) Powell's own book about his trip(s) is Exploration of the Colorado River and Its Canyons.


Sycamore

My point with the Sacajawea comment of course was to highlight the fact that this whole exploring/discovering/pioneering ethos seems to be a peculiarly American conceit. We called it a howling wilderness etc. etc, to everybody else it was just where they lived.

I'm recalling the doomed Santa Fe expedition of 1840 (??) A bunch of Texans were looking for a trade route between the Texas settlements and Santa Fe and got hopelessly lost. One guy who saw them was a literate Texas Delaware Indian named Jim Shaw, then about twenty and on his way back from one of several trips to New Mexico. He said he could tell they were lost but feared to approach them in case he was shot for being an Indian, Lamar being president of the republic at the time. Yet another case of our guys making a huge production of what was not extraordinary to everyone else.

Anyways, a general rule of thumb for Western History is; for anywhere an American set foot, a rifle-carrying member of one of our Eastern Tribes had been there twenty years earlier, and a Frenchman packing 200 pounds of gear (trade goods going out, furs coming back) on his back with a tumpline had been their eighty years before that

From your neck of the woods, here's one of Catlin's more famous portraits, circa 1832, of a prominent Blackfoot Indian, then about age fifty...



Of course the Indians in these portraits knew they were being painted for posterity, a message to the world and to future generations if you will. Turns out this guy was a collector and perhaps wanted everyone to know it: He showed up for his sitting carrying the scalps of eight White trappers (see, the Blackfeet didn't use the raised middle finger back then, and I doubt Catlin woulda painted it even if they did )

Birdwatcher

Keep 'em coming Birdy. Good stuff.

Yes I believe even Francois Larouque was in the Yellowstone country in 1805 parleying with "les Sauvages".

And the main purpose of the ill-fated Vilasur expedition of 1721 was to check on reported French incursion among the Pawnee and Otoes in present Nebraska. As a side note, Archeleveche, the purported assassin of La Salle back in Texas, had earlier turned himself in to the Spanish authorities. He was the. Banished by the Spanish to the Santa Fe area. He was on the Vilasur expedition and was one that was killed in the battle with the Pawnee!!

I'm glad someone knows what I'm talking about. Not being home to touch these books leaves my memory at a disadvantage.

Finished a little book on "The Boy Captives". Story of Clinton and Jeff Smith. Captured in 1871 in Comal county Texas by a party of apache/Comanches.

As Clinton stated he had no real idea of geography but apparently after his adoption into one of the Comanche bands, they traveled just about everywhere. All over the southwest and as far north as what he thought was Wyoming and Montana. Said they had constant run ins with the Blackfeet. They even hung out with Shoshone, Cheyenne, and assorted Sioux bands. He even felt they visited Utah several times!

Very interesting read!

I've got a book called "the journal of Lews and Clark"

Very informative on there trip to the west coast.

Virgil B.

Ya, the other popular misconception we have is that somehow the Indians were nailed in place, like those tribal names on maps. Yet when our guys traipse all over the Continent we account it nothing remarkable.

I believe its Brumwell in "White Savage" (a Robert Rogers bio.) who gives an account of a British Redcoat in the F&I War captured by Indians on Lake Champlain in Upstate New York. Subsequent to his capture he was hauled down the Ohio and then to Mississippi and back, the occasion being his Ohio Country captors visiting kin among the Choctaws.

IIRC the Cherokees themselves have it that there were Cherokees living in Mexico as early as 1745, it is known that Cherokees were in Texas by around 1805 and that by 1825 Cherokees were entering into agreements to protect Mexican settlements along the Rio Grande from hostile Indian raids. Sequoia himself died in Mexico while on a mission to locate Mexican Cherokees. Delaware show up prominently in Texas of course, and so do Shawnees, and again most infamously as professional scalp hunters in Mexico and our Southwest.

A notable example of a wandering Delaware Indian of that era being the extraordinary Black Beaver, of whom Randolph Marcy wrote in 1857....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Beaver

�had visited nearly every point of interest within the limits of our unsettled territory. He had set his traps and spread his blanket upon the head waters of the Missouri and Columbia; and his wanderings had led him south to the Colorado and Gila, and thence to the shores of the Pacific in Southern California. His life had been that of a veritable cosmopolite, filled with scenes of intense and startling interest, bold and reckless adventure. He was with me two seasons in the capacity of guide, and I always found him perfectly reliable, brave, and competent. His reputation as a resolute, determined, and fearless warrior did not admit of question, yet I have never seen a man who wore his laurels with less vanity. The truth is my friend Beaver was one of those few heroes who never sounded his own trumpet; yet no one that knows him ever presumed to question his courage"

He would later make his fortune in the cattle business.

More on the travelling front: We can go for sure as far back as Squanto, legendary friend of the Massachusetts pilgrims, who had previously been to England and back, presumably in the company of English fishermen fishing along the coast of the New World.

Specific to the West, IIRC Crow Indians from Montana at least once accompanied Kiowa raiders into Mexico far enough south to encounter parrots and monkeys and I suppose I should mention the two Nez Perce guys who (in the late 1830's?) independently made their way from Northern Idaho down the Yellowstone and Missouri to St Louis on what appears to have been a fact-finding mission.

The all time champion native wanderer I have read mention of I cannot seem to locate. Some years back Muzzleloader magazine published an account from I believe an 18th Century Englishman among the Natchez. The Englishman was describing a Natchez Indian who, curious to see what there, had travelled alone clear up the Missouri and then over the mountains to the coast of the Pacific Northwest, where he encountered Russians. The whole journey taking a few years IIRC. Upon his return the man then ascended the Ohio and travelled overland to the coast of New England and back. Like I said, I lost the source now but it is plausible.

Birdwatcher

I kinda went through this topic a little fast but I didn't see anyone mention A.B.Guthrie's books, The Big Sky and The Way West. I really enjoyed both.

I believe you may be referring to the Englishman, William Bartram.

Also La Salles trusted native was a Shawnee named Nika. He was killed with la Salle. Evidently Nika and the Cavelier had no issues making themselves understood among the natives!

Another francais in the area a long time was Hneri de Tonti. Or Iron Hand as known among les Sauvages. He lost his hand to a short fuse Grenade in Sicily. Had it replaced with a brass ball. He came down the Mississippi with. La Salle in the early 1670's and established a post among the Quapaw at the mouth of the Arkansas river. Known as "Arkansas Post. The natives in this area (mostly Caddoan dialect speakers) had the lucrative salt trade all tied up with the other Sauvages.

It was actually Arkansas Post that the survivors of the ill-fated La Salle expedition were trying to reach. On their eventual return to Canada. But believe it or not de Tonti was out searching for them as well!!! Eventually he contracted a fever and died upon his return to the post. Henri Joutel and the other La Salle survivors did reach Arkansas Post and were returned to Canada!

The Pawnee were actually known for years as the "plains Caddo!" All the same linguistics group. An interesting practice of the qua paws was they built "sleeping" towers some 40 and 50 feet in the air where they could catch the summer breezes to blow away the mosquitoes!!

I also read "The Boy Captives" and wondered about the vast distances the boys traveled while living with the Indians. I questioned some of their recollections as being how kids often overestimate numbers and distances. Especially considering they were thrust into a completely alien world and did not know the country at all. Interesting story for sure and a glimpse into Indian life.

If I had to pick a book or two to get started on Western History, I start with Lewis and Clark and move into the fur trade. "Undaunted Courage" by Ambrose is pretty good and easier to read than the actual journals when it comes to descriptions and where they are actually at. For the fur Trade "Across the Wide Missouri" by Bernard Devoto is good.

For every factual book written on the subject, there is probably twice that many that are mostly bogus and just a story of yarns or "my side of the story is what really happened" type that has very little basis on truth except that the wannbe hero wanted to create a legend for himself.

Good reads!!! Read em both while in high school! I felt he way west a bit draggy, but I reall enjoyed the big sky!!! I think it the cornerstone book for western fiction! Guthrie really blazed a trail for later writers!!!

Specific to the fur trade era, its been decades since I read it but I'm recalling Westering Man: The Life of Joseph Walker is a particularly good read.

Still not on board with you BW. Your knowledge of some land areas of the young USA is obviously superb. But.......ever seen the Popo Agie River?

You and KW continue to view Texas, Oklahoma, Nebraska, and New Mexico as western USA. We Rocky Mtn State folks consider these eastern and southern states. They are not the same thing. You and I are speaking different languages. Waaaaaaaay different ones. Texas might be west to a Louisianan.....but it's east to me.......no different than Florida is.

Another thing to consider is winter climate when ranking accomplishments. There is absolutely no similarity between a western Wyoming winter and a Sante Fe or Taos one. Not to mention an Amarillo one. The mtn men of Wyoming were much tougher people than, say, Kit Carson. That's why he stayed south, LOL. Read the story of Colter living in a snow cave and getting snow blindness. He didn't have sunglasses. He learned to rub a line of charcoal under each eye.......like modern day athletes do.......from the northern indians.

Perhaps your "rules of thumb" apply to eastern and southern states. Don't agree at all that they apply to the northern rockies.

Nobody suggested here that L & C or Colter or Bridger were the first white men to see the places mentioned. The terms 'exploration' and 'toughness' don't come with a timing priority. They did, however, have the most important and the most lasting impact to the mapping, indian cultures, transportation routes, and overall development of the west. Just ask the mormons.

A Canadian trapper or two might have wondered thru previously, but the documented impacts in the form of written (even by others) journals and such that documented key knowledge of life in the Rockies and what it took to survive are solely owned by the aforementioned white men.

Your Catlin portrait is neat.......but that Blackfoot could have whacked those white men in the days of Ashley's Expedition....which was I believe 1823 or so. Colter and L & C were there almost two decades before then.

And lastly, of course the indians were indeed there first. Flatheads, Crows, Mandans, Blackfeet, Shoshone, Cheyenne, etc. And yes they lived there first. And yes they were an extremely hearty and tough-ass people. But no......there was no 'everybody else' as you state. Not Mexicans or Spaniards or French Canadians. That's why it's called 'conquering', LOL. What the hell else was there to conquer.....jackrabbits and coyotes and grizzly bears?

Great thread with many great reads listed.

This could grow tedious but its about history so here goes...



<"Shrug"> Relatively unimportant WHAT anybody considers anywhere as long as we are talking about the same place. ESPECIALLY as the Frontier was constantly moving, peopled on both sides by highly mobile individuals all from somewhere else. Weren't Colter originally from Pennsylvania?



Logical then to start with Eskimos?



I always thought Mexican girls had something to do with it. Anyhow IIRC Mr Carson killed a bully in a duel as a young man while living up in them Rockies, overwintered there. Then came south, later on he successfully rounded up the Navahos with minimal bloodshed AND, at the First Battle of Adobe Walls successfully extricated his mounted force when faced with about the same odds as Custer faced with scarcely the loss of a man. All the while inflicting significant casualties on said Indians.

But, did he ever overwinter in a snow cave? I believe he preferred to use pretty senoritas as a source of heat, I do recall too that a pretty young Indian woman was the cause of that early duel up at the Rendevous.

Whom did the 19th Century Rocky Mountain fur trappers "conquer" anyhow? I believe the majority or at least a good part of 'em WERE Indians (the Iroquois being especially prominent) or mixed-bloods.

Anyways, we do have photos of remarkably tough Indians, more so than of remarkably tough White guys, Blacks or Mexicans it would seem. Maybe because proportionately more Indians in that period were still living a lifestyle where extraordinary toughness was the expected norm.

This here is Satank, voted one of the Kiowas Ten Bravest, seen here around age seventy, and still actively raiding. Prob'ly about as tough as it is humanly possible for a seventy year-old to be. Shortly after this photo was taken he was called into a meeting, detained at gunpoint, chained and forcibly loaded into a wagon by the Army to be sent to Texas to stand trial for murder.



Throwing a blanket over his head, Satank chewed the flesh off his hands enough to slip the manacles, stabbed a guard with the man's own belt knife and was shot while making a break for freedom.

Two more famous tough guys; this time Northern Cheyennes. Little Wolf, about forty in 1868 when this photo was taken, is standing, Dull Knife, then about sixty, is seated. Dull Knife of course got that name as a young man when a grizzly charged the camp. Putting himself between the bear and his people he dispatched the bear with said instrument.



Ten years after this photo was taken these men led the famous breakout from the Oklahoma reservation and the subsequent running fight of the Northern Cheyennes to Nebraska. Splitting the band, Little Wolf evaded capture and made it to Montana. Dull Knife's group was cornered in the Sand Hills and taken to Fort Robinson.

What followed was the famous mid-winter breakout, in the middle of the night in a blizzard in Nebraska. Dull Knife was about seventy when he led that action.

Point of interest, in the later reservation years Little Wolf, while drunk, shot and killed another Cheyenne who had been bothering his daughter. This was an unthinkable offense for Little Wolf who IIRC was then keeper of some tribal sacred objects with all the obligations that entailed.

For several days he sat out on a hill in plain view so that the relatives of the dead man could come out and kill him. No one did.

After that he spent the remaining twenty years of his life in a sort of self-imposed isolation with his wife.

Birdwatcher

I agree and at times confusing to read.

I was searching for a good Texas history book and Lonestar: A History of Texas was highly recommended. I am only about 30% into the book and became sidetracked with a copy of Empire of the Summer Moon, only about 20% into that book.

I have bookmarked Kit Carson and Lewis and Clark titles and look forward to reading those.

I guess I would do well to turn off the tv and get off the computer and read, if I wait until I hit the sack I only get through a few pages a night.