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DakotaDeer, I've read through the articles you posted and found them interesting and useful. Perhaps the most useful finding is that stable, long term homosexual relationships that involve the rearing of children are nearly non-existent. Now the interesting question that follows is, does the poorer outcome for children who have gay/lesbian parents come from the instability or from the gay/lesbian nature of the relationship? Or is it the case that people with gay/lesbian tendencies tend to have personality factors that make them poorer parents?

I can guarantee that any serious investigation into those questions will bring a firestorm of criticism and personal attacks. I hold that chilling of critical investigation and free speech to possibly be the greatest issue at stake. The gays have an agenda. They don't want anyone to raise questions or speak disapprovingly of them, and they want to attain this by becoming a protected class based on their behavior.


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Denton, here is the ASA (American Sociological Association) amicus breif that was filed with the U.S. Supreme Court in the DOMA case last year.

http://www.asanet.org/press/asa_files_amicus_brief_in_same-sex_marriage_cases.cfm

Quote
WASHINGTON, DC, February 28, 2013 � The American Sociological Association (ASA) weighed in on the gay marriage cases before the U.S. Supreme Court today, filing an amicus brief outlining social science research that shows �children fare just as well� when raised by same-sex or heterosexual parents.

�The results of our review are clear,� said ASA President Cecilia Ridgeway. �There is no evidence that children with parents in stable same-sex or opposite-sex relationships differ in terms of well-being. Indeed, the greater stability offered by marriage for same-sex as well as opposite-sex parents may be an asset for child well-being.�


Link to the actual brief that was filed.

http://www.asanet.org/documents/ASA/pdfs/12-144_307_Amicus_%20%28C_%20Gottlieb%29_ASA_Same-Sex_Marriage.pdf

If you read the brief you will find that the ASA was very critical of the research that was cited by DakoataDeer.

Last edited by Squidge; 01/11/14.

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I did start through the brief, but didn't get very far. There are a couple of major red flags that popped up at once.

The brief starts by talking about "scientific consensus", just as the warmists like to do. There is a major problem with that approach. Science does not operate by consensus. Now if they want to talk about "often replicated", that's a valid approach. But they didn't. So I'm immediately skeptical that their approach follows the scientific method.

The next problem is possibly even greater. They say that there is no evidence that children reared by homosexual couple do worse than those reared by heterosexual couples. The problem with that approach is that absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. The first time someone like Regnerus pops up with evidence, the house of cards collapses. The opposition is left spluttering about the research not being right, since it contradicts their beliefs.

If someone shows a valid problem with Regnerus' sample selection, or misapplication of statistical tests, then there is something to discuss. Comments like "out of the mainstream" carry no weight.

My personal observation is that children reared in stable, long term, heterosexually parented homes tend to be more successful. But that's just a personal opinion. The data have to rule over opinion.


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Originally Posted by denton
If someone shows a valid problem with Regnerus' sample selection, or misapplication of statistical tests, then there is something to discuss. Comments like "out of the mainstream" carry no weight.


Read the brief, the ASA's criticism of Regnerus' research is in the brief that was filed, it starts on page 16 and is quite lengthy.

Quote
First, the Regnerus study does not specifically examine children born or adopted into same-sex parent families, but instead examines children who, from the time they were born until they were 18 or moved out, had a parent who at any time had �a same-sex romantic relationship.� Regnerus 2012a at 752. As Regnerus noted, the majority of the individuals characterized by him as children of �lesbian mothers� and �gay fathers� were the offspring of failed opposite sex unions whose parent subsequently had a same-sex relationship. Id. In other words, Regnerus did not study or analyze the children of two same-sex parents.


Quote
Second, when the Regnerus study compared the children of parents who at one point had a �same-sex romantic relationship,� most of whom had experienced a family dissolution or single motherhood, to children raised by two biological, married opposite-sex parents, the study stripped away all divorced, single, and stepparent families from the opposite-sex group, leaving only stable, married, opposite-sex families as the comparison. Id. at 757 (the comparison group consisted of individuals who �[l]ived in intact biological famil[ies] (with mother and father) from 0 to 18, and parents are still married at present�). Thus, it was hardly surprising that the opposite-sex group had better outcomes given that stability is a key predictor of positive child wellbeing. By so doing, the Regnerus study makes inappropriate apples-to-oranges comparisons.


Quote
Third, Regnerus�s first published analysis of his research data failed to consider whether the children lived with, or were raised by, the parent who was, at some point, apparently involved in �a romantic relationship with someone of the same sex� and that same-sex partner. Id. at 756. Instead, Regnerus categorized children as raised by a parent in a same sex romantic relationship regardless of whether they
were in fact raised by the parent and the parent�s same-sex romantic partner and regardless of the amount of time that they spent under the parent�s care.9 As a result, so long as an adult child believed that he or she had had a parent who had a relationship with someone of the same sex, then he or she was counted by Regnerus as having been �raised by� a parent in a same-sex relationship.10


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Fourth, in contrast to every other study on same-sex parenting, Regnerus identified parents who had purportedly engaged in a same-sex romantic relationship based solely on the child�s own retrospective report of the parent�s romantic
relationships, made once the child was an adult. This unusual measurement strategy ignored the fact that the child may have limited and inaccurate recollections
of the parents� distant romantic past. Id.


Quote
Finally, the study fails to account for the fact that the negative outcomes may have been caused by other childhood events or events later in the individual�s adult life, particularly given that the vast majority (thirty-seven of forty) of the outcomes measured were adult and not childhood outcomes.11 Factors other than
same-sex parenting are likely to explain these negative outcomes in the Regnerus study. Regnerus himself concludes that �I am thus not suggesting that growing up with a lesbian mother or gay father causes suboptimal outcomes because of the sexual orientation or sexual behavior of the parent.� Id. at 766.


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In sum, by conflating (1) children raised by samesex parents with (2) individuals who reportedly had a parent who had �a romantic relationship with someone of the same sex,� and referring to such individuals as children of �lesbian mothers� or �gay fathers,� the Regnerus study obscures the fact that it did not specifically examine children raised by two same-sex parents. Accordingly, it cannot speak to the impact of same-sex parenting on child outcomes. As discussed above, amici in support of BLAG and the Proposition 8 Proponents have themselves rejected such �inappropriate comparisons� between stable and unstable family structures, see Brief for American College of Pediatricians at 4-5, as did the district court
in Perry, see 704 F.Supp. 2d at 981 (studies that make apples-to-oranges comparisons are of no moment).


Quote
Regnerus acknowledged the merit of a series of scholarly critiques regarding underlying aspects of his research and subsequently published a second analysis of the data. Among others, a group of over one hundred social scientists signed an article faulting the Regnerus study for failing to take account of family structure and family instability. Gary J. Gates et al., Letter to the Editor and Advisory Editors of Social Science Research, 41 Social Science Research 1350 (2012). The article specifically criticized the Regnerus study�s failure to �distinguish between the impact of having a parent who has a continuous same-sex relationship from the impact of having same-sex parents who broke-up from the impact of living in a same sex stepfamily from the impact of living with a single parent who may have
dated a same-sex partner.� Id. Regnerus tried to remedy the fact that his initial published research did not analyze whether the children had actually lived with the parent who, according to the adult child, had at some point, been �romantically involved� with family instability. Gary J. Gates et al., Letter to the Editor and Advisory Editors of Social Science Research, 41 Social Science Research 1350 (2012). The article specifically criticized the Regnerus study�s failure to �distinguish between the impact of having a parent who has a continuous same-sex relationship from the impact of having same-sex parents who broke-up from someone of the same sex. See Mark Regnerus, Parental Same-Sex Relationships, Family Instability, and Subsequent Life Outcomes for Adult Children: Answering Critics of the New Family Structures Study with Additional Analyses, 41 Social Science Research 1367, 1369 (2012) (�Regnerus 2012b�).

Nevertheless, Regnerus�s follow-up analysis does not resolve the problems inherent in his initial analysis and contains many of the same shortcomings. The follow-up analysis maintained the flawed and extremely broad definition of what constitutes �lesbian mothers� and �gay fathers��a mother or father who ever had a romantic relationship with someone of the same-sex during the period from the birth of the child until the child turned eighteen (or left home to be on their own). Id. at 1368. Accordingly, Regnerus�s analysis continues to ignore stability as a factor in child outcomes�a factor that explains many of the differences among its subjects. And Regnerus still fails to account for the duration of time spent with a mother who was �romantically involved� with a same-sex partner and that partner. See id. at 1372. Only two of the eighty-five children who at some point lived with a mother who was �romantically involved� with another woman reported that they did so for the entire duration of their childhood. Finally, Regnerus�s follow-up analysis is still not reflective of same-sex parenting because Regnerus could not remedy the fact that he recorded experiences that occurred either during the time the child lived with his or her mothers� same-sex partner or during another childhood time period.


Quote
If any conclusion can be reached from Regnerus�s study, it is that family stability is predictive of child wellbeing. As Regnerus himself notes, family structure (for instance whether the family has a single parent or two parents), matters significantly to child outcomes. Regnerus 2012a at 761. As the social science consensus described in Part I demonstrates, the evidence regarding children raised by same-sex parents overwhelmingly indicates that children raised by such families fare just as well as children raised by oppositesex parents, and that children raised by same-sex parents are likely to benefit from the enhanced stability the institution of marriage would provide to their parents and families. All told, the Regnerus study, even as revised, does not undermine the consensus that children raised by same-sex parents fare just as well as those raised by opposite-sex
parents.


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Originally Posted by RobJordan
Originally Posted by DakotaDeer
A two-part article summarizing the New Family Structures Study. Though roundly criticized, it has held up well to actual peer-review since being released.


http://www.thepublicdiscourse.com/2012/10/6784/

http://www.thepublicdiscourse.com/2012/10/6786/


Excellent find Dakota!



We are off on a tangent here about parenting. That is not the issue. The question is not about: should people (either gay or straight) have to have a parenting license and/or meet certain requirements prior to parenthood is an issue for another day. The issue at hand is should gay couples be allowed (by the state) to enter into a marriage contract.
Will someone please explain how a same sex couple adversely effects their neighbors. Try as I might, I just cannot see what the big deal is.

Try as they might, no one has cataloged exactly what kind of harm they personally suffer if another couple is of the same sex.
Complete this statement in ten words or less: "A same sex couple got married and it caused damage to me by___________________________"


Here are some examples:
"A food store sold me spoiled meat and it caused damage to me by making me sick__________________________"
"A Jiffy Lube employee forgot to replace the drain plug and it caused damage to me by burning out my engine______________"
"A gas station owner allowed water to get into his supply tank and it caused damage to me by making my car stall___________________________"
"A fast food restaurant gave me extra french fries and it caused damage to me by making me fat___________________________"
"A dog walker emptied his dog on my lawn and it caused damage to me by soiling my shoe__________________________"

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I don't think it is a tangent at all.

A fundamental question to be asked and answered is, does the state have an overriding interest in specifying the form of marriage? If children who are reared in conventional heterosexual families do much better than those who are reared in homosexual families, then they might have such an interest. See the statement by the Supreme Court in the original post. What the Justice is doing is articulating the reason the government has such an interest. Absent that, the government did not have the right to disenfranchise polygamists.

The other issue on the table that is interesting to me is whether the gays should be granted protected class status on the basis of homosexual behavior. It appears that they have attained that in some countries. I think that is an exceptionally bad outcome.

If Snotwad were to ask how I am damaged by that, then the answer is easy: My right to freely speak my mind would be severely curtailed.

Quote
a group of over one hundred social scientists signed an article faulting the Regnerus study


This is a giant red flag. It clearly says that this issue is being handled politically rather than scientifically.

So, there is a lot to digest. If I had the statistical designs from the studies ASA cites, it would be fun to go through the list and find how many of them were statistically sound. Based on my general experience reading studies in scholarly journals, my expectations would not be very high.

My thanks to those who have brought information to the table.

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Is the legitimacy of gay marriage even in the top 10 of our concerns in today's upside down world?


The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist expects it to change; the realist adjusts the sails.
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Originally Posted by isaac
Is the legitimacy of gay marriage even in the top 10 of our concerns in today's upside down world?


Not mine....or Deflaves (as I understand him). Nor do I believe it to be yours, Bob. That was kind of the point as it relates to "conservatives"; only ban what I want you to ban, otherwise get the gov't out of my life.


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Is the legitimacy of gay marriage even in the top 10 of our concerns in today's upside down world?


It depends. smile

By itself, probably not.

As part of an agenda that attempts to give gays protected class status based on behavior, very much.


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Do those of you advocating the states need to intervene on behalf of the children also think the state should intervene against single-parents?


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I heard this once before but will repeat here. If you don't want gays having sex then the best thing to do is let them get married.......

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Originally Posted by gremcat
I heard this once before but will repeat here. If you don't want gays having sex then the best thing to do is let them get married.......


Ain't that the truth.

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Originally Posted by goalie
Do those of you advocating the states need to intervene on behalf of the children also think the state should intervene against single-parents?



Great question.


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Originally Posted by denton
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a group of over one hundred social scientists signed an article faulting the Regnerus study


This is a giant red flag. It clearly says that this issue is being handled politically rather than scientifically.

So, there is a lot to digest. If I had the statistical designs from the studies ASA cites, it would be fun to go through the list and find how many of them were statistically sound. Based on my general experience reading studies in scholarly journals, my expectations would not be very high.

My thanks to those who have brought information to the table.


I would encourage you to do so and to start with Regenerus's study that the ASA cites. Where you see a "red flag" with political overtones I see one hundred scientists that that wrote to the journal that published his study, a journal that pretty much no one else reads, and complained about what they felt was very faulty methodolgy. Based on the what they cited in the amicus brief I am inclinded to agree with them. If this letter truly had political overtones then they would likely have taken this up in the mainstream media rather than with the obscure journal that it was published in.


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Originally Posted by Squidge
Originally Posted by denton
Quote
a group of over one hundred social scientists signed an article faulting the Regnerus study


This is a giant red flag. It clearly says that this issue is being handled politically rather than scientifically.

So, there is a lot to digest. If I had the statistical designs from the studies ASA cites, it would be fun to go through the list and find how many of them were statistically sound. Based on my general experience reading studies in scholarly journals, my expectations would not be very high.

My thanks to those who have brought information to the table.


I would encourage you to do so and to start with Regenerus's study that the ASA cites. Where you see a "red flag" with political overtones I see one hundred scientists that that wrote to the journal that published his study, a journal that pretty much no one else reads, and complained about what they felt was very faulty methodolgy. Based on the what they cited in the amicus brief I am inclinded to agree with them. If this letter truly had political overtones then they would likely have taken this up in the mainstream media rather than with the obscure journal that it was published in.


The number of scientists who disagree with Regnerus is utterly irrelevant to the empirical correctness of his conclusions. In the first place, the social "sciences" are so utterly compromised by a left-leaning political agenda that their "consensus" on anything is utterly meaningless. And in any event, its logically irrelevant. We would do well to remind ourselves of Einstein's retort when Hitler trotted out a large number of his "scientists" as proof that Einstein was wrong on some issue. Einsein aptly remarked "It only takes one to prove me wrong." In other words, citing the number of "scientists" or adherents on any question (scientific or otherwise) as proof of who is right,is irrelevant. It completely begs the salient question.


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I would encourage you to do so and to start with Regenerus's study...


From what I've read, he could have designed a more efficient study.

His critics complain that he did not account for durability of the homosexual relationship, since unstable parenting situations are well-known to be detrimental to the children. His reply was that instability is characteristic of homosexual relationships, and that it is most fruitful to study typical relationships.

There is a structure that allows you to account for multiple input variables that he could have used. Not using that is by no means a fatal error. It sort of comes down to a choice of randomizing vs. blocking.

I haven't really thought through the criticisms about his subject selection.

What I would expect to find in a large collection of studies would be failures such as choosing the wrong type of data, doing proportion tests while violating the equal risk assumption, and designing investigations with low statistical power. This latter one is very common. People often don't analyze power and sample size, so you get a report where someone says that the test came up empty, and presents that as evidence of no difference. Whether or not there is a difference, that result would be expected if the test had a beta risk of .6.

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Originally Posted by isaac
Is the legitimacy of gay marriage even in the top 10 of our concerns in today's upside down world?


Not even a blip on the radar.



Travis


Originally Posted by Geno67
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual.
Originally Posted by Judman
Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit.
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Originally Posted by goalie
Do those of you advocating the states need to intervene on behalf of the children also think the state should intervene against single-parents?



Let me check my Bible...



Dave


Originally Posted by Geno67
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual.
Originally Posted by Judman
Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit.
Originally Posted by KSMITH
My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
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I hate to break it to you, but its not the proponents of natural marriage who picked a fight asking the government to intervene on their behalf. It's the proponents of sodomite marriage who have done that. Kapiche? (roll eyes) Are you telling us that when the Left wants to continue their long (and destructive) march through our culture, its our fault when we fight back? Sheeesh, you liberals are really something else.

Last edited by RobJordan; 01/11/14.

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Originally Posted by deflave
Originally Posted by goalie
Do those of you advocating the states need to intervene on behalf of the children also think the state should intervene against single-parents?



Let me check my Bible...



Dave


Homosexuality would be wrong, even if every religion in the world said otherwise.


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