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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 26,647 Likes: 7 |
"A rational Debate on Abortion"
RUFKM??
Is this supposed to be a joke?
FJB & FJT
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Shouldn't we be debating "when does life begin"?
Here are your options:
1. Conception
2. The "quickening", aka ensoulment or when conscious awareness begins.
3. Birth
If we follow historical legal traditions then the option 2 is the correct answer.
How do you decide when 2. happens? You can't ask a child if he is aware until he can speak. You can't measure the "ensoulment" if that's even a word. You could say that reaction to external stimuli would be an indication of awareness and that happens very early in development. Way too arbitrary IMHO. We can talk murder or homicide all you want but I have no intention of killing a child no matter what your definition or reason. Killing to me means that you end a life. No matter what you call that child, if you can end it, it is alive. If you end a child's or fetus's life, that otherwise would come to full term, you have killed that child, no matter what you choose to call it. There may be several reasons why someone would think it is a better option than bringing that life into the world, but it is what it is, killing a child, no matter how bad that sounds. Lots easier to kill a fetus.
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Joined: Jan 2001
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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Posts: 29,973 Likes: 10 |
I wouldn't touch this discussion with a 3.048 meter pole. There will not be a single winner.
Last edited by 1minute; 01/23/14.
1Minute
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Sep 2008
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My personal beliefs - moral and social - are strong, but not necessarily germane to the discussion as framed.
Those who say they are "pro-choice" have a difficult row to hoe, firstly because without the option of legal abortion, there is no "choice" to kill the baby - legally. Consequently, by default, pro-choice is a supposedly more acceptable euphemism for pro-abortion. It would be interesting to see an argument to the contrary by a person who claims to be pro-choice but not in support of chosen abortion upon request.
It also is a difficult position for pro-abortion folks because the taking of a life is involved - even given the apparently unwinnable arguments about exactly when the baby becomes a person - abortion always involves the ending of a life. The "choice" to end a life must be harrowing to those having basic moral foundations.
Having watched this situation unfold over the past 40+ years, knowing that millions of babies have been killed in the process, and having witnessed the personal and social toll wrought by wholesale abortion, I beleive there to be strong evidence that the ruling to legalize abortion on demand has been a huge factor in the ongoing and serious unraveling of the moral and ethical fabric of this society.
NRA Member - Life, Benefactor, Patron
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If it means another 0 than I'm PRO CHOICE! Otherwise I'm Pro LIfe!
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Campfire Ranger
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OP
Campfire Ranger
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"There may be several reasons why...... "
But we can't discuss the validity of the reasons, can we?
Almost all of us are never going to have an abortion, or perform an abortion.
But the zealots on both sides allow no shades of gray.
We recognize the fact that not all homicides are murder, both in our minds and in our laws, but in the case of abortions, either they ALL are murder, or NONE are homicides, according to the zealots who rule the debate.
Never holler whoa or look back in a tight place
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 56,361 Likes: 9 |
Cur, where you going with this?
_______________________________________________________
An 8 dollar driveway boy living in a T-111 shack
LOL
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The Demonrat Party slaughters 53 million innocent unborn children.
The Demonrat Party advocates for amnesty for 30 million illegals.
Is this party of communists,fascist homosexuals and every hate-America-type ever on the right side of any issue?
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Mar 2011
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Tyranny is good for funeral homes.
The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time by the blood of patriots and tyrants.
If being stupid allows me to believe in Him, I'd wish to be a retard. Eisenhower and G Washington should be good company.
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How do you decide when 2. happens? You can't ask a child if he is aware until he can speak. You can't measure the "ensoulment" if that's even a word. You could say that reaction to external stimuli would be an indication of awareness and that happens very early in development. Way too arbitrary IMHO.
We can talk murder or homicide all you want but I have no intention of killing a child no matter what your definition or reason. Killing to me means that you end a life. No matter what you call that child, if you can end it, it is alive. If you end a child's or fetus's life, that otherwise would come to full term, you have killed that child, no matter what you choose to call it. There may be several reasons why someone would think it is a better option than bringing that life into the world, but it is what it is, killing a child, no matter how bad that sounds. Lots easier to kill a fetus. This became the rule of English law. "Quickening" (literally, "coming to life") was held to occur not at a fixed time after conception, but at the moment when fetal movement is first detected�an event that varies with each pregnancy, but which usually happens near midterm, around the twentieth week.
"Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence". John Adams
"A dishonest man can always be trusted to be dishonest". Captain Jack Sparrow
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Campfire Ranger
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OP
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Feb 2001
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Cur, where you going with this? I reckon I'll go wherever the thread leads. I thought I stated my personal stance in my OP. If a middle ground were allowed, I expect I'd be somewhere there. For almost all of us, the question involves a choice we will never have to make in our own lives. And yet we can't discuss it rationally. If I was "going anywhere with this", I reckon that's my destination.
Never holler whoa or look back in a tight place
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Joined: Dec 2006
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Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
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Let all those that think it is not murder or think abortion is OK... Make them take part in a late term abortion where the child is birthed and then the back of the spinal cord is cut to kill the baby.. make them look at that child and ask them if it is still OK
You are right if you think I can not have a rational debate on a topic where you are killing a child...
Last edited by Sako; 01/23/14.
The worst thing ever to happen to cops is the personal video recorder... Now people can see the truth
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The Lord said "thou shalt not commit murder", Scott. HE did not say 'Though shalt not Kill', otherwise HE would not have directed the Battle of Jericho and others where HE instructed that ALL the enemy be killed (all, includes Children). He also commanded the elders of the church hunt down and kill a murderer. So, I don't think HE considers Texas's executioners to be murderers. I also don't think HE considers our US Army sniper team to be murderers or those who fought and killed the enemy in Desert Storm, WW1 or WW2.
If He had said we can't kill, deer hunting or using antibiotics would be a sin. Hmmm, cherry picked biblical passages to support your position? You sir, must be an orator of the highest quality. Laffin'
The factory of the future will have only two employees, a man and a dog. The man will be there to feed the dog. The dog will be there to keep the man from touching the equipment. � WARREN G. BENNIS
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
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To quote Tupac "....ladies that make the babies
And since a man can't make one, He has no right to tell a woman when and where to create one"
The factory of the future will have only two employees, a man and a dog. The man will be there to feed the dog. The dog will be there to keep the man from touching the equipment. � WARREN G. BENNIS
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I wouldn't touch this discussion with a 3.048 meter pole. There will not be a single winner. I disagree. If you are able to argue about this subject you are a winner. If you get aborted you definitely are NOT a winner...your dead.
One man with courage makes a majority....
~Molɔ̀ːn Labé Skýla~
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Campfire Outfitter
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Bullshitt.
The Roe v. Wade decision was based upon a lie.
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Joined: Feb 2001
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Campfire Ranger
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OP
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 24,239 |
Let all those that think it is not murder or think abortion is OK... Make them take part in a late term abortion where the child is birthed and then the back of the spinal cord is cut to kill the baby.. make them look at that child and ask them if it is still OK
You are right if you think I can not have a rational debate on a topic where you are killing a child... All right thinking folks condemn that without having to actually see it. But if my 14 YO daughter or grand daughter were gang raped, I don't like the idea of her being reminded of it on a daily basis while being forced to carry the child to term. And you would have your child carry it to term?
Never holler whoa or look back in a tight place
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Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 32,044
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 32,044 |
The best legal way i know of, to keep the population numbers of Ghetto Hood Rats under control
A Doe walks out of the woods today and says, that is the last time I'm going to do that for Two Bucks.
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Campfire Outfitter
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There has never been any responsible legislation,that would restrict abortions, which would not allowed an exception in the case of rape,incest,or health of the mother.
Pulling the gang rape card is weak.
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Campfire Tracker
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Bullshitt.
The Roe v. Wade decision was based upon a lie. Interesting retort. Perhaps you would care to articulate yourself beyond the level of a toddler?
The factory of the future will have only two employees, a man and a dog. The man will be there to feed the dog. The dog will be there to keep the man from touching the equipment. � WARREN G. BENNIS
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