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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 31,137 Likes: 5 |
Actually, DJS, when one says that one wants the govt out of our lives, I agree.
But, that assumes the unborn are not persons and therein is the catch. If you see the unborn as a person you pretty much have to wind up libertarian on their behalf. You do want government to protect innocent people, right? As a libertarian, I should not be using the force of law to impose my religious views of when life begins upon you. You needn't be particularly religious to oppose killing innocent humans. That is the heart of the discussion. OT, your view of when life begins is a religion belief, and the rest of your argument flows from that religious belief, so an imposition of a religious view upon others is at the heart of the issue.
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
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Seperate DNA a beating heart is not religious. It's science. The new DNA forms at conception because that is when the new life forms.
Religion is God saying "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you;".
"And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor." ![[Linked Image]](http://www.rockymtnrefl.com/TetonFenceBarncd1985987.jpg)
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Joined: Mar 2008
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 15,652 |
Actually, DJS, when one says that one wants the govt out of our lives, I agree.
But, that assumes the unborn are not persons and therein is the catch. If you see the unborn as a person you pretty much have to wind up libertarian on their behalf. You do want government to protect innocent people, right? As a libertarian, I should not be using the force of law to impose my religious views of when life begins upon you. You needn't be particularly religious to oppose killing innocent humans. That is the heart of the discussion. OT, your view of when life begins is a religion belief, and the rest of your argument flows from that religious belief, so an imposition of a religious view upon others is at the heart of the issue. Where did I bring religion into this? You did. I think it may be your convenient straw man "out" of choice. ;-{>8
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 35,900 |
Actually, DJS, when one says that one wants the govt out of our lives, I agree.
But, that assumes the unborn are not persons and therein is the catch. If you see the unborn as a person you pretty much have to wind up libertarian on their behalf. You do want government to protect innocent people, right? As a libertarian, I should not be using the force of law to impose my religious views of when life begins upon you. You needn't be particularly religious to oppose killing innocent humans. That is the heart of the discussion. OT, your view of when life begins is a religion belief, and the rest of your argument flows from that religious belief, so an imposition of a religious view upon others is at the heart of the issue. I would disagree that the issue of when life begins is based upon religious views. I would not trust it to something so nebulous; it's biological all right.  Nor do I buy into the notion that life begins when this "stream of consciousness begins"....who can say for certain when that starts? Ability to survive outside the womb? That's preposterous...by any rational standard that is pretty clearly a child in there. The problem with an awful lot of the abortion discussion is that it centers around "our" perceptions", the "rights" of third parties, societies "ability" to determine when life begins ...but pays precious little attention to the one life most directly affected, and unable to make his/her views known......a compassionate and civilized people will defer to that life form, and give it a chance, rather than grasp at straws to justify destroying it.
The 280 Remington is overbore.
The 7 Rem Mag is over bore.
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Joined: Nov 2011
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 31,137 Likes: 5 |
Where did I bring religion into this? You did. I think it may be your convenient straw man "out" of choice. ;-{>8
So you deny being a Christian and holding a religious belief that life begins at conception?
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Dec 2011
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Actually over 60% occur within the first 9 weeks, 87% within the first 12 weeks.
Gest. week Percent
<9 weeks 60.6%
9-10 17.1%
11-12 9.1%
13-15 6.3%
16-20 3.8%
> 21 1.3% Regardless I still imagine you would draw the line at conception? Yes, conception. Do you deny that a 12 week old fetus is a human? Clearly not a human child http://www.babycenter.com/fetal-development-images-12-weeks
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Jan 2007
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Gentlemen of the campfire,its been many years since school so forgive me if Im not correct.A person becomes human life when their DNA becomes complete.They will never become more human.Isnt this completion what we call fertilized. This is an opinion, that in all likely hood coincides with your religious belief. Just because you assert it, does not make it true. Barak covered this in his egg/chicken example. The idea that human life is determined by the degree of development is evil.We can not make that decision.A one year old child can not survive on its own but its human life.Im sure we all agree on this.The idea that anyone will choose to decide when human life is or isnt a person is scarey.Playing God is foolish.
Last edited by jdm953; 01/24/14.
Ideas are far more powerful than guns, We dont let our people have guns. Why should we let them have ideas. "Joseph Stalin"
He who has braved youths dizzy heat dreads not the frost of age.
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Campfire Ranger
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OP
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 24,239 |
These comments are directed at the participants in general, not to any one poster:
In my OP, I used the word "homicide", since in the strictest sense, it ascribes no ethical nor moral consequences to the act itself. Our society recognizes that individual persons are authorized to commit homicide in some instances.
My position is that at some point in a pregnancy, an abortion IS homicide.
So, with respect to abortion, I'm in the position of a juror asked to determine if a particular homicide is justified. I wouldn't be expected to vote without all the particulars being presented.
Unlike other homicides, an abortion as is commonly practiced involves the participation of more than one party, so premeditation is established at the outset, and thus, the usual elements of a "justifiable homicide" are not present.
To support abortion as it is currently practiced in our country, I MUST conclude that an abortion is not homicide............. EVER.
To be against abortion because of my Christian beliefs, I'm forced to establish if my concern is for the unborn baby, the mother, or the provider.
The unborn baby gets a free pass to Heaven, so any concern for him is shallow, at best. I'm constrained NOT to judge the mother and the provider, since they will have a chance to repent.
So......... my concern about harm done must be for the society in which I live. I certainly can't expect perfection from a society made up of sinful humans, so perfection can't be a USEFUL standard for ascribing guilt.
According to the statistics provided by one of the participants, if we allow abortions during the first 9 weeks of pregnancy at the discretion of the mother and the provider, we will reduce total abortions to 60% of their present number.
If we apply the rules for "justifiable homicide" to the remaining 40%, that number would decrease dramatically.
That's a compromise I can live with, knowing fully that it IS a compromise.
IF that makes me "pro choice" in the minds of some of my forum friends, then so be it.
Never holler whoa or look back in a tight place
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Campfire Sage
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Campfire Sage
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424 Likes: 13 |
So you deny being a Christian and holding a religious belief that life begins at conception?
You're an idiot. Travis
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual. Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit. My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
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Campfire Ranger
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OP
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 24,239 |
Since you addressed your post to me, I'll return the favor:
"gay rights and women's health issues?"
An odd linkage, it seems to me.
Never holler whoa or look back in a tight place
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Joined: Aug 2004
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 28,242 Likes: 2 |
A cow and a deer experience hunger and pain yet we consider them not to be SELF aware, and the killing of such is not murder.
Define "self aware"?
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 18,352 Likes: 2 |
As for the fertile chicken egg, it is alive until it is killed. But is it a chicken?
Carpe' Scrotum
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
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As for the fertile chicken egg, it is alive until it is killed. But is it a chicken? Absolutely
Ideas are far more powerful than guns, We dont let our people have guns. Why should we let them have ideas. "Joseph Stalin"
He who has braved youths dizzy heat dreads not the frost of age.
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 56,361 Likes: 9 |
Anybody argue with this order?
1) Life
2) Liberty
3) Pursuit of happiness
Another way to think it, work from the bottom up starting with the one that would logically be relinquished in time of crisis.
Life would always be the most logical one to preserve, even in the absence of the other two. Problem in America is, the other two come first now. "Right to choose" is nothing more than a selfish clinging to pursuit of happiness. A baby is inconvenient so I'll kill it.
_______________________________________________________
An 8 dollar driveway boy living in a T-111 shack
LOL
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Campfire Oracle
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Campfire Oracle
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 96,121 Likes: 1 |
I'm against abortion, can't fathom how a person could do it.
That said, I can understand it for cases of rape/incest and medical reasons.
"Dear Lord, save me from Your followers"
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 18,352 Likes: 2 |
As for the fertile chicken egg, it is alive until it is killed. But is it a chicken? Absolutely This is a chicken? ![[Linked Image]](http://cdn.backyardchickens.com/c/c7/c75c656b_60076_fertilized_chicken_egg_04-09-11.jpeg)
Carpe' Scrotum
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
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Take a DNA sample and let science decide.
As for the fertile chicken egg, it is alive until it is killed. But is it a chicken? Absolutely This is a chicken?
Ideas are far more powerful than guns, We dont let our people have guns. Why should we let them have ideas. "Joseph Stalin"
He who has braved youths dizzy heat dreads not the frost of age.
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 18,352 Likes: 2 |
Hummm... If I send in a mouth swap to a DNA lab, it will tell me that I have human DNA. Is the goo on the swab a human being?
Carpe' Scrotum
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
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Posts: 7,297 |
No but it will show the DNA of a human.It will not be alive.When a grown man dies he will show the DNA of a human.If you check the DNA of a dead fetus it will show the DNA of a human.Whats your point.
Ideas are far more powerful than guns, We dont let our people have guns. Why should we let them have ideas. "Joseph Stalin"
He who has braved youths dizzy heat dreads not the frost of age.
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Posts: 5,222
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
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A cow and a deer experience hunger and pain yet we consider them not to be SELF aware, and the killing of such is not murder.
Define "self aware"? The ability to recognize oneself when looking into a mirror/reflection, this is one of the things separates humans beings from animals.
"Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence". John Adams
"A dishonest man can always be trusted to be dishonest". Captain Jack Sparrow
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