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Actually over 60% occur within the first 9 weeks, 87% within the first 12 weeks.
Gest. week Percent
<9 weeks 60.6%
9-10 17.1%
11-12 9.1%
13-15 6.3%
16-20 3.8%
> 21 1.3% Regardless I still imagine you would draw the line at conception? Yes, conception. Do you deny that a 12 week old fetus is a human? Clearly not a human child http://www.babycenter.com/fetal-development-images-12-weeks Is this clearly a kangaroo joey? This is about 10 weeks from gestation. But through some natural design, the young fetus transfers from the birth canal to the mother's pouch - sort of a womb for the rest of the gestational period. It cannot survive outside the pouch, but nearly everyone would agree that killing this joey when it transfers to the pouch would be wrong. Why is it that the life of the joey: ![[Linked Image]](http://www.natgeocreative.com/comp/MI/001/1246299.jpg) Has more value than this life? ![[Linked Image]](http://www.priestsforlife.org/images/baby-phillip-01.jpg)
Last edited by WyColoCowboy; 01/24/14.
"And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor." ![[Linked Image]](http://www.rockymtnrefl.com/TetonFenceBarncd1985987.jpg)
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Campfire Ranger
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I'm saying that a fertilized ovum is not yet a chicken. It may have the potential to become a chicken, but it is not yet.
Same as a zygote. It might be alive in that it is exhibiting biochemical activities and it is growing (cellular division). But it is not human any more than cells that I might give to a lab to be cultured.
The difference is that it is hosted in an environment that is conducive to and it is at the beginning of the biological process that might eventually lead to it becoming a human.
That's all I'm trying to say. Now the last half of the sentence above might be enough to allow one to say that it's human. I just can't make that leap.
That being said I do believe that a full term 'fetus' is a human. Not sure if I'm wise enough to know where the line is crossed.
Last edited by Steve; 01/24/14. Reason: grammar
Carpe' Scrotum
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I've asked pro-choicers a question, none can answer, it goes as follows- "You're in the hospital, you give birth to your child, and immediately regret your decision to do so. You ask the attending OB/GYN to spike the baby on the floor and kill it, should he follow your wishes?" I always get a NO!!
I then ask, "take me back in time from the moment the child is delivered, and you tell me at what specific month/day/hour/minute/second it goes from being un-ok to ok."
Still waiting.
There's always hope as long as there's lead in the air.
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I do think it is interesting that all the liberals who claim to want us to do so many things for the benefit of children are the main ones that are very eager to see that many of the children they claim to love never are allowed to be born. They seem to be quite willing to kill the helpless and innocent, the unborn and the old, for the sake of convenience.
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OP
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Because of the "one or the other" nature of the question, I've reluctantly been pushed into the "pro choice" camp and WILL answer your question.
Prior to 9 weeks gestation it should be the mother's choice. Whether that qualifies as "OK" the way you framed your question, is up to you to decide.
Prior to 9 weeks, I consider abortion to be justified homicide just like a shooting death that was clearly self defense and no indictment is sought.
After 9 weeks, I'd shift the burden of proof to the mother and the provider to show that the abortion is not manslaughter or one of the classes of murder we define.
Partial-birth abortion would generate a charge of Capital Murder.
Never holler whoa or look back in a tight place
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In MHO, a human being will give birth to another human being....not a thing, frog, deer, or ant.
So, one is choosing to kill a human being, period.
Prevention of pregnancy can be accomplished in many ways, one of which is the rhythm system.
I also believe there is a vast difference between life, and human life. This difference doesn't seem to bother many people.
As far as the authority is concerned, I would contend NO authority is needed, if you look at the number of abortions committed in our country these days. Wouldn`t you think the unborn would have at least one champion? They don`t even get a day in court.
Abortion is murder.
I have no trouble with that.
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Campfire Ranger
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OP
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I do think it is interesting that all the liberals who claim to want us to do so many things for the benefit of children are the main ones that are very eager to see that many of the children they claim to love never are allowed to be born. They seem to be quite willing to kill the helpless and innocent, the unborn and the old, for the sake of convenience. Along the same line of thought, it would seem that liberal "humanists" would place a really high value on life in this physical world, since that's " all there is". They do seem to do exactly that with regard to the death penalty, but line up on the "other side" when the issue of abortion is raised. I believe it displays intellectual dishonesty within the individuals.
Never holler whoa or look back in a tight place
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--- Almost 90% of abortions occur within the first 12 weeks, before she can feel it kick, before she is even showing, before it's obvious to the public, hence while it is still a private matter. Of course the absolutist don't care about this, to most it's a mission to impose their will (and usually their religious belief) upon other through the force of law.
Don't know that your 90% is correct, and am not arguing that point. However, it seems like your term "absolutist" and the non-caring and mission you ascribe to such are judgments not based on demonstrable fact. What sound data do you use to document their state of caring, to document their mission, and to document the intended imposition of their religious beliefs. Further, how would such an "absolutist" use the force of law any differently than a pro-abortion activist uses current law? Can you cite sound evidence/documentation of your described "absolutist" positioning as found in this thread?
NRA Member - Life, Benefactor, Patron
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"As far as the authority is concerned, I would contend NO authority is needed, if you look at the number of abortions committed in our country these days. Wouldn`t you think the unborn would have at least one champion? They don`t even get a day in court.
Abortion is murder."
Since we are in agreement with regard to the first three paragraphs of your post, I only post these for comment.
"authority"...... I was speaking as to how I, personally, have considered it in arriving at my position on abortion, not on how it is currently viewed in our society and our courts.
"their day in court". In coming to my position, they do have their case heard. Prior to 9 weeks gestation, their mother is authorized to have their life ended. That authority is withdrawn at 9 weeks gestation and she is charged with a crime.
The severity of the charge would increase with each stage of the pregnancy and would attach to the abortion provider as well.
"murder". If you killed a home invader, I'll bet you wouldn't see it as "murder".
Once again....... all murders are homicide.
Not all homicides are murder.
Never holler whoa or look back in a tight place
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Campfire Ranger
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Yes, conception. Do you deny that a 12 week old fetus is a human?
Is this clearly a kangaroo joey? This is about 10 weeks from gestation. But through some natural design, the young fetus transfers from the birth canal to the mother's pouch - sort of a womb for the rest of the gestational period. It cannot survive outside the pouch, but nearly everyone would agree that killing this joey when it transfers to the pouch would be wrong. Why is it that the life of the joey:
Has more value than this life?
It does not. No animal life has value, unless one holds the views of a vegan. There is NO sin, harm, or wrong in the killing of any infant animal. When that life contains a human consciousness, then the taking of that life becomes homicide. Seperate DNA a beating heart is not religious. It's science. The new DNA forms at conception because that is when the new life forms.
Religion is God saying "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you;". To claim that i/4 oz bundle of DNA contains a human consciousness can only be done on religious grounds, until it has formed a brain. And I would suggest measurable EEG waves. Self aware could be defined as awareness of one's mortality, the ability to recognize future risks and take preventative actions. It is the collection of nebulous things which separate human from the animal. I've asked pro-choicers a question, none can answer, it goes as follows- "You're in the hospital, you give birth to your child, and immediately regret your decision to do so. You ask the attending OB/GYN to spike the baby on the floor and kill it, should he follow your wishes?" I always get a NO!!
I then ask, "take me back in time from the moment the child is delivered, and you tell me at what specific month/day/hour/minute/second it goes from being un-ok to ok."
Still waiting. Nobody can give an exact day of the gestation period, because consciousness is a gradual awakening. At some point during the first year after conception, that little bundle of DNA has become a thinking, teachable human being. It is a long, gradual process. I am convinced that 12 weeks after conception is far too early to consider the fetus a sentient being. Even though I would not choose to engage in an abortion at any stage, I could not vote to call 1'st trimester abortion a homicide.
People who choose to brew up their own storms bitch loudest about the rain.
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Keep things simple OK.Are you saying life becomes human when it becomes smart?
Ideas are far more powerful than guns, We dont let our people have guns. Why should we let them have ideas. "Joseph Stalin"
He who has braved youths dizzy heat dreads not the frost of age.
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So....... my 9 week threshold doesn't work for you?
Never holler whoa or look back in a tight place
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Campfire Outfitter
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Yes, conception. Do you deny that a 12 week old fetus is a human?
Is this clearly a kangaroo joey? This is about 10 weeks from gestation. But through some natural design, the young fetus transfers from the birth canal to the mother's pouch - sort of a womb for the rest of the gestational period. It cannot survive outside the pouch, but nearly everyone would agree that killing this joey when it transfers to the pouch would be wrong. Why is it that the life of the joey:
Has more value than this life?
It does not. No animal life has value, unless one holds the views of a vegan. There is NO sin, harm, or wrong in the killing of any infant animal. When that life contains a human consciousness, then the taking of that life becomes homicide. Seperate DNA a beating heart is not religious. It's science. The new DNA forms at conception because that is when the new life forms.
Religion is God saying "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you;". To claim that i/4 oz bundle of DNA contains a human consciousness can only be done on religious grounds, until it has formed a brain. And I would suggest measurable EEG waves. Self aware could be defined as awareness of one's mortality, the ability to recognize future risks and take preventative actions. It is the collection of nebulous things which separate human from the animal. I've asked pro-choicers a question, none can answer, it goes as follows- "You're in the hospital, you give birth to your child, and immediately regret your decision to do so. You ask the attending OB/GYN to spike the baby on the floor and kill it, should he follow your wishes?" I always get a NO!!
I then ask, "take me back in time from the moment the child is delivered, and you tell me at what specific month/day/hour/minute/second it goes from being un-ok to ok."
Still waiting. Nobody can give an exact day of the gestation period, because consciousness is a gradual awakening. At some point during the first year after conception, that little bundle of DNA has become a thinking, teachable human being. It is a long, gradual process. I am convinced that 12 weeks after conception is far too early to consider the fetus a sentient being. Even though I would not choose to engage in an abortion at any stage, I could not vote to call 1'st trimester abortion a homicide. You are simply trying to reason your way into a liberal stance on abortion under 12 weeks. You know in your heart of hearts that that fetus is a human being. Let me give you a gross example that may possibly shock you into correct thinking. We are both very hungry, possibly starving. We would have no problem eating a plate of eggs, raw eggs, or even a bowl of soup made from those 10 week baby joey's that Cowboy posted. Would you eat a bowl of soup made from 10 week old human fetuses? I wouldn't and I bet you would rather starve too, because you know in your heart that even if they don't look human , they are.
Last edited by R_H_Clark; 01/24/14.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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So....... my 9 week threshold doesn't work for you? Curdog, I wanted to congratulate you on your willingness to make such a concession. One this thread, I believe you are the only "prolife" person to make ANY concessions. By the same token, I'm willing to concede everything after 20 weeks. Perhaps we could leave the middle ground to the individual states to decide?
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
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Campfire Ranger
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OP
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Thanks. I find that common sense often dictates moving away from absolutes when trying to establish a principled stance on complicated issues.
Sometimes we must slide partway down a slippery slope to find a level spot where we can rest firmly.
Never holler whoa or look back in a tight place
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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Sometimes we must slide partway down a slippery slope to find a level spot where we can rest firmly.
Sometimes, but not in the case of human life. I'm pretty sure the top of the slope looking down is the place you want to be come judgement day. I'll rest there.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Thanks. I find that common sense often dictates moving away from absolutes when trying to establish a principled stance on complicated issues.
Sometimes we must slide partway down a slippery slope to find a level spot where we can rest firmly.
I still disagree with both of you but I doubt that surprises anyone.  What I do find interesting is at almost 200 posts we have accomplished your original goal of a rational discussion. As far as I know this is a first for the Campfire on such a sensitive and emotional subject. Makes me glad I resisted the urge to pass it up and not peak when I first saw the title.
The first time I shot myself in the head...
Meniere's Sucks Big Time!!!
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Sometimes we must slide partway down a slippery slope to find a level spot where we can rest firmly.
Sometimes, but not in the case of human life. I'm pretty sure the top of the slope looking down is the place you want to be come judgement day. I'll rest there. The passion of both sides on the issue has resulted in what I see as a mountain range with a peak that has been whittled down to a knife edge. I can't stand at the top of that. My fate at Judgement Day was decided quite some time ago. Aside from that, I can neither have, nor provide, an abortion. To deprive a pregnant woman of ANY say-so in the matter just offends my common sense.
Never holler whoa or look back in a tight place
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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Sometimes we must slide partway down a slippery slope to find a level spot where we can rest firmly.
Sometimes, but not in the case of human life. I'm pretty sure the top of the slope looking down is the place you want to be come judgement day. I'll rest there. The passion of both sides on the issue has resulted in what I see as a mountain range with a peak that has been whittled down to a knife edge. I can't stand at the top of that. My fate at Judgement Day was decided quite some time ago. Aside from that, I can neither have, nor provide, an abortion. To deprive a pregnant woman of ANY say-so in the matter just offends my common sense. we're not talking about salvation. We are judged even to the attitudes of our hearts. Our actions, our conversations, our thoughts, and in this case what we advocate, all are judged.
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Campfire Kahuna
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To deprive a pregnant woman of ANY say-so in the matter just offends my common sense.
It's not mine or your opinion on the matter we need to worry about. We have the Word of God to reveal what he thinks, and we would be well to do as He sees just, and set our own thoughts aside.
Last edited by Fireball2; 01/24/14.
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