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And there is the great loss. I have a difficult time wrapping my head around grown men who will degenerate a discussion into nothing more than slinging profanity at each other over whether down or synthetic is best, reminds me of parents getting in fistfights over children's T-ball games.
It's just sad.

And it is a loss to those of us who DO come here to draw on the experience of others and share our experiences and preferences. One person carries and axe because, well, because he admires and enjoys the workmanship of fine Swedish tools and enjoys using them on his backpacking outings...only to be chewed up for being a fool for carrying such crap and called everything stupid and fake to a wannabe and have his character assaulted.



So screw 'em. Tell me about bivy bags.

As I see it there are 2 basic types of bivy bags. There is the kind that is designed to be used on its own as a tent (often with a hoop over the head), and there is the lighter weight kind that is made to be used in conjunction with a tarp and just keeps your bag dry. The one I have wieghs 8 oz and has a bug net, but i would not want to try using it without a tarp. It would do for a night outside in an emergency.

As regards a good bivy - for me a good bivy is one that breathes well. If I bivy does not breathe well then you end up with a wet bag anyway simply from perspiration. And that brings up another point - always try to breath out of bivy and sleeping bag.

I also did do an experiment about clothes in a bivy bag. I always used to be a firm believer in less clothes the better for sleeping. Anyway I took along a 40 degree down bag on a trip in May and a freak cold snap with temps down into the teens had me freezing at night. So I put on my puff pants and puff jacket and all my clothes on and still froze. So the next night rather than wearing the clothes I stuffed them in and around me inside the bag - basically putting the extra insolation where I needed it. And I slept toasty warm!!

Basically I think wearing the clothes might insulate you from the bag and not let you warm it up? I also think with the clothes around you lets the bivy and sleeping bag breathe better so the moisture does not build up. Anyway those are my thoughts on the matter. Patrick

My love affair with bivies started and ended in one Septembers bow season in NW Montana. I spent 5 days in the Swan Range chasing Elk. It went from 70 and sunny, to 50 and rainy, then 35 and snowing. That trip was in the top 5 for "sucked the most" That was the end of me thinking Cameron Hanes knew what the [bleep] he was talking about. Now I'm of the opinion that bivies are for emergencies. Something to consider... A Kifaru Supertarp without an Annex weighs about what most bivies does. It also sucks way less than a bivy.

sleeping with clothes on? I always have underwear on, socks, and a shirt when I'm in a sleeping bag. Once it actually starts to get cold out, I usually have on a 200 weight merino wool pair of long underwear on, and a henley merino top of similar weight. My new favorite socks are the Smartwool PhD's of midweight design. If I think it'll be cold enough that I'll be wearing more clothes than that to bed, I take a warmer bag.

However.... Springtime in Montana can get dicey, and I recall one trip during Spring Bear that I wore all my clothes inside a WM Badger (merino base layer, 320 weight merino fleece, and a downie jacket) I don't remember being cold after putting on all the clothes. But then, there's enough room in that bag that I wasn't tight anywhere in it...

That was before I became a full blown "non-classic-backpacker" and had heated shelters. Now, wet clothes, wet bags, shivering, being cold in a tent, or having life suck in November are distant memories.

My favorite tent right now is my Seek Outside BCS1. Tent, stakes, and center pole (carbon fiber)in an EdT 10-5 sack is 3 Lbs 10.4 ounces. My C stove from Ed goes 1 pound 13 ounces. 4 1/2 Lbs for a heated shelter that I'm sure is more square feet than a floored tent of the same weight. That leaves enough room in my pack to carry a 19 ounce axe to play with

That clears up some confusion pgsalton and DanAdair, thanks.

What's been confusing to me was the little one-man "tube tent" bivy and the outer sleeping bag cover being called a bivy.

I can see where both would need to breath and breath well or else be wetter than being without. I'm thinking the bag cover would be useful in a single wall tent if one were stuck in some rainy weather and getting heavy condensation without a chance to dry out during the day.

I've also stuffed a down vest and at times a Kuiu Spindrift in my bag. That also makes it nice putting them on the next morning if it's frosty! And what I wear is similar to Dan, merino base layers and merino socks.

And by the way. I have a Gransfors Bruks Wildlife Hatchet. I bought it and thought I must be crazy paying what it cost. It is such a nice tool. I've never had buyer's remorse at all. Being a persnickety craftsman myself, I appreciate the craftsmanship, the sharp edge and it just feels great in the hand. I occasionally carry it on one or two day overnighters, just to play with. Absolutely don't need it but absolutely love it. I'll even walk around my campsite with it on my belt.
It just feels good.

do you ever worry about carbon monoxide poisoning when heating a closed shelter.

No. Mankind has been burning wood since long before we had the internet.

I have wondered about taking a lightweight bucket and carrying a bucket full of campfire coals into a shelter instead of setting up stove and stovepipe. There are warnings about charcoal (briquettes ?) causing monoxide poison inside even a floorless shelter.

Any experts know whether plain old campfire coals will cause dangerous level of monoxide inside a floorless ventilated tipi or other shelter? Few to no hardwoods in my part of the world so such coals would not last a long time but would warm a small space for a little while.

I would rather heat a bucket of rocks on the fire and take that into the shelter.

Even if CO is not a concern, kicking the bucket could cause other problems.

But don't use river rocks like polesmoker sharpens his knife with.

I am not sold on it yet but here is Kuiu's new down sleeping bags.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=aegKBFq4i4o

If it works as advertised it will make synthetic bags a thing of the past.

I just wish Kuiu would make an attempt at making correct sizing. If that means they need to make a Tall option so be it. But the BS sizing they got going on now sucks. Jason claims its an athletic fit. BS a XL and XXL are the same length. I know I have bought both and measured. I would like to be a Kuiu "fan boy" as they make some really nice products. But sleeve length sucks! Even the chest sizing sucks. Athletic to Jason must mean short and skinny "Breadstick".

I'm no expert but I can about guarantee if you take a bucket of campfire coals into a tent, you'll soon be evacuating or dead. Yes, this would likely cause carbon monoxide poisoning, in fact, almost certainly.

The reason a wood stove is pretty safe is the same reason it is safe to use a woodstove in a house. The combustion is contained in the firebox and all exhaust gas, goes out the pipe. In fact, that draft is what makes a woodstove of any flavor work. If it is drafting, there is virtually no way any gas can escape back into the tent as it would have to move against the draft, which really isn't physically possible, assuming no gasses are escaping at pipe junctures. Even still, the heat, smoke, gases etc are rising out the top of the tent, through the pipe, and drawing in fresh air continually. I'd say it is pretty safe.


Don't take a bucket of fireplace coals in your tent.

Thanks. Kinda what I figured but since they always specifically mention charcoal briquettes in the warnings I decided to ask.

Heated rocks obviously pose no safety risks, and would work better than nothing...

[quote=MontanaCreekHunter]If it works as advertised it will make synthetic bags a thing of the past. [quote]

Huh?

A weak attempt at making down more impervious to moisture and therefore as effective as synthetic does not equate to synthetic becoming obsolete.

DWR is not a permanent treatment and will only hinder moisture saturation but will not stop it.

The ability of a synthetic fiber-fill bag, especially a continuous-filament fiber-fill bag, to work, regardless of the introduction of moisture, is unquestionable.

It's 'true down' that is becoming a thing of the past because duck feathers are being mingled with down as down becomes harder to source. The price of down bags will soon climb. A source in New York has 850-fill down listed at $75 / pound wholesale. That makes for a very expensive bag at retail or even at a pro-deal price.

Down don't grow on trees. It grows on geese. I love it the way non-hunters love to pick on hunters for gathering their own meat, then they climb into their "comfy down bag". Somewhere there are bare naked geese who are strong proponents of synthetic-fiber-fill bags!

Distance from the cold is the true insulator. Loft. By wearing too much clothing in an adequate bag, you are stifling heat from filling the loft. If heat does not fill the loft, cold air fills the loft and you will be cold because of the close proximity of the cold to your body. Wear as little as possible inside your bag. If you are cold, you are under-bagged or your bag is not efficient enough for conditions.

Interesting how some insulating mediums have to be re-invented and re-marketed every couple years to keep them relevant.

Well, I consider my current 3+ pound REI down bag and my synthetic 4 lb bag heavy. That's cause I see lighter bags for the same zero temperature ratings advertized all the time. However, my experimenting with lighter bags, while limited by funding has left me skeptical that lighter weight can be warmer. Weight seems to equal heat in a sleeping bag. I have spent some miserable nights in lightweight bags. A tip is that a top quality insulated pad is necessary for anything below freezing.

DWR was only one component of the bag. I take it you did not watch. Either way I have yet to have a problem with down. If this treatment to the down works as advertised it will only make a down bag better then it already is. Which in my opinion is better then synthetics.

Watched the video.
Not impressed enough to spend $600 on a sleeping bag in order to save 1.5# from my pack. I usually come back with an added 80-100 pounds.

He clearly states the dangers and limitations of down. More than once.

You go for it. I'll watch and continue to rely of my synthetic bag, which is much more reliable than down.

Exactly! It's always cool to be on an outing with someone who does some things differently than what I'm accustomed to. I like to think I can still learn. I know some guys I really respect who will never use a down bag. Which makes it all the more fun to use one on a trip with them.

He is stating the limitations of untreated down, not of his new product. By all means use what works for you. But until you have tried it you have zero experience with the product. So you really can't speak of its reliability.