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Here's 10 shots as fast as I could shoot them at 100yds yesterday. The rifle it was shot with is probably one of the greatest rifles ever assembled (Howa action, McMillan stock, Broughton barrel, Timney trigger, etc.) but the load it was shot with was assembled for a different barrel/chamber and was only being shot for schit and grins.

Scope was a 6X and the rifle weighs well under 8lbs. Group is under 1 1/2"s.

[Linked Image]

Today I shot a similar 10 shot group with a pre-Garcia Sako equipped with a 7X.

What does this tell me? It tells me if you're a rifle loony and have something that can't put 3 shots well under MOA, you should buy a new [bleep] rifle.


Travis


Originally Posted by Geno67
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual.
Originally Posted by Judman
Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit.
Originally Posted by KSMITH
My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
GB1

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Campfire Kahuna
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Denton,

A young statistician recently contacted me, saying he's worked out some new and better stuff about accuracy. I've only looked at part of it so far--but the most interesting aspect so far is that I've been wondering about the AMERICAN RIFLEMAN'S protocol for testing rifles with one load, which is five, 5-shot groups at 100 yards. I had my suspicions this started back in Townsend Whelen's day, so asked the editor. He'd recently done some research himself and found out it started when General Hatcher was in charge, though it may well have had its roots with Whelen.

The interesting thing is that when I told the young man about this protocol, he sounded very skeptical--but then got back to me a couple days later and said he'd put it through his system, and it's actually pretty good--far better than he would have guessed!

Anyway, there have been a number of people research how many shots it takes for a group to reveal the actual potential of a certain rifle and load. I'll look at several in the article, but many come down to similar general conclusions--none of which involve 3-shot groups.


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Campfire Kahuna
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The BeeGees?

That hurts...

I take a contrary view from most I guess, mostly because it amuses me to multitask with rifles. What is required has zip to do with what I accept from a given firearm, nor does its performance necessarily govern how I use it.

With only a very few exceptions I don't own a rifle incapable of MOA or better over the course of 5 shots fired at a range of 50 to 100 yards. Coming up soon in the neighborhood is a 600 yard line and that will be an education in its own right I suppose.

Why 50? It is unlikely my .22 short shooter will ever be tested at 100 yards in the field, I see no reason to waste ammo. It will shoot successive 5 shot groups at 50 yards off a bag rest that are 1/2" center to center...if I have a conventional scope mounted. With a 3MOA red dot sight it will shoot 1/2" or less out to 25 yards which is further than I shoot in the field 99% of the time. So, what do I need? Minute of pig brain. I shoot from a rest in the field. Our "field" down this way is full of trees and they make wonderful rests.

A Model 94 Trapper with a William receiver sight and hand loads will do far better than I need at 100 yards, about 3" wads. Longest shot I've taken on game was about 75 yards, shortest nearly put powder burns on the hide.


The BeeGees? Dayum, that makes my skin crawl.



I am..........disturbed.

Concerning the difference between man and the jackass: some observers hold that there isn't any. But this wrongs the jackass. -Twain


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Travis,

I have a .204 that will shoot even better--and it's "built" on a bone-stock (not even blueprinted) 700 action, with a Tupperware Remington factory stock, and a Remington factory barrel that somebody took off an action they wanted to turn into a custom rifle.

I unscrewed the original barrel from the rifle (which I'd fried shooting at rodents), then screwed on the "take-off." The headspace checked out OK so I shot it with the same load that shot well in the fried barrel.

I also have a bone-stock Ruger American .308 that will put 10 into less than 1-1/2"--with factory ammo. (Three-shot groups with the same ammo go under 1/2".) Have other factory rifles that will do similar things. The truth is that today benchrest accuracy is cheaply obtained--but none of this proves anything one way or another about what level of accuracy is required for shooting big game at conventional ranges.

Personally, I've center-punched the lungs of a bull caribou at 350 yards with a pre-'64 .270 Winchester that wouldn't average much better than 2" at 100 yards--because the sights were the factory bead and a Lyman 48 aperture. It was relatively easy, since I'd shot the rifle considerably, and the lungs of a bull caribou are pretty large. Which is one of the points of my first post on this thread.


“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
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In the event of something happening to me,
There something I would like you all to see.
It's just a photograph of someone that I knew...

Five five-shot groups would give a little better precision that three do. Just on a SWAG, it would probably give you an estimate of the long term average, plus or minus 15%. But somewhere in that ballpark is the sweet spot for effort vs. reward.

I've fiddled with various schemes, some of which involve a lot more effort, and give only slightly better results. I have yet to find something that is simple to apply in the field that is better than averaging a few groups. Measures of dispersion are slippery devils that don't like to be made to stand still and tell the truth.

You could build a system out of a larger number of three shot groups, but it wouldn't give you any better information or reduce the number of shots required.

I do have a few comfortably sub-MOA rifles, and I like them. If I ever need to engage a pronghorn at 700 yards, I'll surely get one out of the safe. But usually I'm asking what I would simply enjoy shooting. Pretty often that comes down to my cheapo bolt action 30-30, or my lever action 357. Those are more like 2 MOA rifles, but they are just fun to shoot.

Last edited by denton; 03/14/14.

Be not weary in well doing.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Phuggit, a 1 shot group is all we really need. Confirm proper POI and call it a day wink. That means hit what the [bleep] you are aiming at and all is good whistle:


[Linked Image]


Originally Posted by raybass
I try to stick with the basics, they do so well. Nothing fancy mind you, just plain jane will get it done with style.
Originally Posted by Pharmseller
You want to see an animal drop right now? Shoot him in the ear hole.

BSA MAGA
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"You can tell by the I use my walk I'm a woman's man - no time to talk."

Dig it. And anybody that nailed this...

[Linked Image]

...was doing something right.

This entire thread is subjective. Hunting rifle in Crow's world can and does mean anything from the .22 Hornet to the .45-70. They have differing levels of acceptable accuracy. Hitting a deer at 200 ain't so hard. Hitting a crow at 400 can be.


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Campfire Kahuna
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Heretic!


I am..........disturbed.

Concerning the difference between man and the jackass: some observers hold that there isn't any. But this wrongs the jackass. -Twain


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This thread reminded me of an article in American Rifleman 20+ years ago. I had to go look it up.
A well known gunwriter tested a custom rifle in 280 AI built by a famous gun builder known for his long range rifles.
The question he asked was "How much accuracy should one demand in a big game rifle?"
The builder didn't let a gun out of the shop that shot over 1 MOA for 3 shots, and most shot 1/2 MOA he claimed. The test rifle averaged .358" for the builder and .400" for the gun writer.
But he tested the rifles overall consistency by using the same backer consisting of two separate groups. One had 82 shots in it that measured 3.189", the other had 89 shots in 3.375", showing that a 1/2 MOA group could be anywhere within that 3" group under reasonable conditions.


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Campfire Tracker
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Denton: This past year I've been using a new to me method of comparing rifles and loads, and I would like your opinion of the value of it. I shoot a ten shot group, mark the median elevation and windage point, then measure the distance of each shot from that point. What I compare between loads is the median value of each load.


Brushbuster: "Is this thread about the dear heard or there Jeans?"
Plugger: "If you cant be safe at strip club in Detroit at 2am is anywhere safe?"
Deer are somewhere all the time
To report a post you disagree with, please push Alt + F4. Thank You.
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Originally Posted by DigitalDan
Heretic!


Maybe. But you gotta admit that is smoking.


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Originally Posted by CrowRifle
Originally Posted by DigitalDan
Heretic!


Maybe. But you gotta admit that is smoking.


The condom would be.


These are my opinions, feel free to disagree.
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I've got scoped rifles that I try to get as tiny a group as possible. But my favorite rifle to shoot lately is my 582 series Mini 14 with the factory irons. I can cut the center out of a pie plate at 50 yards, hit somewhere around the center at 100 yards, and hit it at 200 yards with factory 64 grain power points. I'll probably hunt with it this fall, just because....

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Campfire Sage
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Originally Posted by Mule Deer
Travis,

I have a .204 that will shoot even better--and it's "built" on a bone-stock (not even blueprinted) 700 action, with a Tupperware Remington factory stock, and a Remington factory barrel that somebody took off an action they wanted to turn into a custom rifle.

I unscrewed the original barrel from the rifle (which I'd fried shooting at rodents), then screwed on the "take-off." The headspace checked out OK so I shot it with the same load that shot well in the fried barrel.

I also have a bone-stock Ruger American .308 that will put 10 into less than 1-1/2"--with factory ammo. (Three-shot groups with the same ammo go under 1/2".) Have other factory rifles that will do similar things. The truth is that today benchrest accuracy is cheaply obtained--but none of this proves anything one way or another about what level of accuracy is required for shooting big game at conventional ranges.

Personally, I've center-punched the lungs of a bull caribou at 350 yards with a pre-'64 .270 Winchester that wouldn't average much better than 2" at 100 yards--because the sights were the factory bead and a Lyman 48 aperture. It was relatively easy, since I'd shot the rifle considerably, and the lungs of a bull caribou are pretty large. Which is one of the points of my first post on this thread.


I was just trying to point out that there are lots of good rifles out there and other than sentimental value there is no real reason to [bleep] with something that doesn't shoot well.

And I do not believe the .204 has been accepted by the AKC so that dog doesn't count as an entry. There is a competition being held in the Predator/Varmint forum if you would like to see a fair and unbiased evaluation of centerfire varmint rifles.

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbth...8580564/1/My_17_Rem_Can_Beat_Up_Your_17_


Travis



Originally Posted by Geno67
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual.
Originally Posted by Judman
Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit.
Originally Posted by KSMITH
My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424
Likes: 13
Campfire Sage
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Originally Posted by DigitalDan
The BeeGees?

That hurts...

I take a contrary view from most I guess, mostly because it amuses me to multitask with rifles. What is required has zip to do with what I accept from a given firearm, nor does its performance necessarily govern how I use it.

With only a very few exceptions I don't own a rifle incapable of MOA or better over the course of 5 shots fired at a range of 50 to 100 yards. Coming up soon in the neighborhood is a 600 yard line and that will be an education in its own right I suppose.

Why 50? It is unlikely my .22 short shooter will ever be tested at 100 yards in the field, I see no reason to waste ammo. It will shoot successive 5 shot groups at 50 yards off a bag rest that are 1/2" center to center...if I have a conventional scope mounted. With a 3MOA red dot sight it will shoot 1/2" or less out to 25 yards which is further than I shoot in the field 99% of the time. So, what do I need? Minute of pig brain. I shoot from a rest in the field. Our "field" down this way is full of trees and they make wonderful rests.

A Model 94 Trapper with a William receiver sight and hand loads will do far better than I need at 100 yards, about 3" wads. Longest shot I've taken on game was about 75 yards, shortest nearly put powder burns on the hide.


The BeeGees? Dayum, that makes my skin crawl.



To think an entire generation was waiting for Barbarian Dan to step in and kill them. You really let them down, BD.


Travis


Originally Posted by Geno67
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual.
Originally Posted by Judman
Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit.
Originally Posted by KSMITH
My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424
Likes: 13
Campfire Sage
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Originally Posted by CrowRifle
"You can tell by the I use my walk I'm a woman's man - no time to talk."

Dig it. And anybody that nailed this...

[Linked Image]

...was doing something right.

This entire thread is subjective. Hunting rifle in Crow's world can and does mean anything from the .22 Hornet to the .45-70. They have differing levels of acceptable accuracy. Hitting a deer at 200 ain't so hard. Hitting a crow at 400 can be.


Who is this?



Travis


Originally Posted by Geno67
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual.
Originally Posted by Judman
Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit.
Originally Posted by KSMITH
My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
Joined: Apr 2009
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My future wife.

Joined: Jan 2007
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Originally Posted by deflave
Originally Posted by CrowRifle
"You can tell by the I use my walk I'm a woman's man - no time to talk."

Dig it. And anybody that nailed this...

[Linked Image]

...was doing something right.

This entire thread is subjective. Hunting rifle in Crow's world can and does mean anything from the .22 Hornet to the .45-70. They have differing levels of acceptable accuracy. Hitting a deer at 200 ain't so hard. Hitting a crow at 400 can be.


Who is this?



Travis


Serious question? smile




The 280 Remington is overbore.

The 7 Rem Mag is over bore.
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Campfire Sage
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Yes sir. I was born post-1890. Would appreciate the info.

Thanks.


Travis


Originally Posted by Geno67
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual.
Originally Posted by Judman
Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit.
Originally Posted by KSMITH
My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 18,453
Campfire Ranger
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Victoria Principal

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