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Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 31
Campfire Greenhorn
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OP
Campfire Greenhorn
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 31 |
Here you go,
CDNN has 20" Alaskan 375's or 416's for $699, Stainless Lam stock 23" 375's for $699, LEFT HAND 20" stainless lam stock for $699 and 23" blue/wood 375 africans for $699. No brakes on any of them. Great price for what is probably the last of these models.
That's pretty good pricing, but my older Brother is a stocking dealer and I luckily have quite a few options there at decent prices. A 20" .375 Ruger would pretty much do the trick I believe. I'm looking at Remington 700 in a .375 wildcat with extended magazine right now. I'm pretty long term familiar with the M700. But that's always subject to change. And as always, I'd rather buy good solid used as opposed to new. But thanks for that. I appreciate all input. J
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Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 47
Campfire Greenhorn
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Campfire Greenhorn
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 47 |
416 Remington would be my choice. Advice on the 375H&H is good as well.
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Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 283
Campfire Member
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Campfire Member
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 283 |
For the "shock" factor and more penetration than seems likely. The Barnes 235gr TSX ought to be the best of several possibilities. A brief look into Barnes manual suggests that more than one load can get over 3000FPS~ 3040 at best listing. Thats a reasonable amount of horsepressure. About 4850 FP. Both shock and penetration in something thats easily hand held. And useful on anything else, that requires shooting. Just my opinion.
precision is group shooting, accuracy is hitting your intended target.
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Joined: May 2007
Posts: 1,867
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 1,867 |
saj I've looked soooo close at .35 Whelen, and .375 Whelen, .375 Whelan Improved, .375 Hawk, .411 Hawk. Based on the ability to carry more rounds in the gun compared to a big .375 round. And I have several '06 based rifles on hand. All of the '06 based mid bores are all capable cartridges but I'm seriously thinking .375 Hawk, a version of .375-06 with the best velocity using 260 gr. NP. I may be stuck in the '80's but I love the old school NP fast expansion and that seems to be the ticket on large felines. J A .30/06 (or .300 mag) is more than enough for a first shot on a leopard. They can be killed with a well placed shot from most deer rifles with a quick expanding bullet, such as a NP or Woodleigh soft. I have a friend who is a retired PH. His "client rifle" was a .35 Whelen loaded with green box garden variety Remington softs and he swears by that combo as a leopard rifle. Another friend recently killed a very large mountain lion with one shot from a 9.3x 62 loaded with a 286 Barnes TSX. He said it was boom, plop. DRT. BTW, he killed his leopard a few years before with a single close range shot from a 9.3x 74 double. They were tracking the cat with dogs and the dogs failed to locate the cat, which was a few yards away behind a bush. A lion can also be killed with a well placed shot from a .30/06 (where legal). However, having successfully hunted (and followed up) a lion, IMO, your .375 Ruger with a 260 NP is a better choice. Or a .375 H&H with the same bullet. Woodleigh makes an excellent soft that I would not hesitate to use for a first shot on a big cat. Don't worry about magazine capacity too much. The odds are a leopard will either drop at the first shot or run off. You are unlikely to have time for a second shot at a leopard, much less a third. But I suppose it could happen. You are more likely to get a second or a third shot off at a lion. However, for followup on a wounded leopard or lion, a large bore double is, IMO, the best choice by far. Just out of curiosity, where and when are you going cat hunting? If you read the thread (I know, it's long), you'll get where I'm coming from. Not really any hunting involved. This is just the best place I know of to put it for real world input. Mainly a new to me mid-big bore caliber to work with, in a rifle that can do double duty just in the odd case. And like I said, does matter to me.ty the adult tigers live in groups of 3-10, so magazine capacireally J The 1895 Cowboy Marlin in 45-70 holds NINE. Eight in the magazine and one in the chamber. Loaded correctly, the 45-70 will dump a lion as well as if not better than the cartridges mentioned under the circumstances you present.
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Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 283
Campfire Member
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Campfire Member
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 283 |
Here is an interesting article on the 375s. The performance with the Barnes 235 and the GS Custom 265gr are really awe inspiring. Kind of put the big cat problem in the varmint category! Especially the GS Custom. These are both monolithic expanders that penetrate well beyond their typical weight expectations. http://www.realguns.com/archives/144.htm
Last edited by rogn; 03/31/14.
precision is group shooting, accuracy is hitting your intended target.
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Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 25,102
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 25,102 |
Hmm.....
If I was to blast my neighbors lions, I'd use my 300WM with 200 Accubonds.
If I wanted a big gun, I'd do a 375 Weatherby with 250 TTSX or Accubonds.
I wish my neighbor had lions.
“Life is life and fun is fun, but it's all so quiet when the goldfish die.”
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Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 23,368
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 23,368 |
Sounds like as good of an excuse as any for buying a DG rifle.
They still use .303 British for tiger in India, just saying. They do many things in India that I'd advise against. That is merely one of the more obvious. .375 H & H is the minimum in most countries. It is perfect for the job. Look no further than to that, or one of its equals like the .375 Ruger.
"The Democrat Party looks like Titanic survivors. Partying and celebrating one moment, and huddled in lifeboats freezing the next". Hatari 2017
"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid." Han Solo
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Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,925
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Dec 2011
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Before they went under, A-Square made a "Lion Load" that was a thinly jacketed soft and not bonded. I have never personally used it, but it had a good reputation as a first shot cat bullet. I would think an ordinary Remington Core Lokt or Federal Hot Core soft point would work well for the first shot on a cat in any sensible caliber, though I would choose (based on my personal experiences) a Partition over either.
Again, for followups, a heavy double is just the ticket. In India, during the era of the Shikari, the classic tiger rifle was a double (they shot them from the backs of elephants). If you want to see a great tiger hunting movie, watch "Harry Black and the Tiger" with Stewart Granger (if you can find a copy). Read the books that Jim Corbett wrote as well. He was the ne plus ultra of problem tiger and leopard hunters in India.
I would dearly love to hunt tiger, but am just not willing to go to prison to do it. Read the Lacey Act for further details.
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Joined: May 2007
Posts: 1,867
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 1,867 |
You betcha. They either don't have a clue or don't want to admit it. If it was 45-70 H&H instead of 45-70 Govt., they would be all over it.
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Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 1,114
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 1,114 |
You betcha. They either don't have a clue or don't want to admit it. If it was 45-70 H&H instead of 45-70 Govt., they would be all over it. Just out of pure curiosity, how many big cats have you personally shot with a .45/70?
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Joined: May 2007
Posts: 1,867
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 1,867 |
Not one. But I have shot a hell of a lot of big animals with a 45-70, and it puts all of them down RIGHT NOW. Zebra, blue wildebeast, black wildebeast, American bison, elk, you get the idea. Complete pass through penetration with a .458 bullet has a way of killing things, and a lion or tiger is not harder to shoot through than a zebra or a 2000 pound bison.
I have seen too many dvd's of animals being shot in Africa with a 375 or 416 to think they work better than a properly loaded 45-70. I actually have a 375 H&H FWIW, and it won't penetrate with my 45-70.
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 4,275
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 4,275 |
the most expensive bullet there is isn't worth a plug nickel if it don't go where its supposed to. www.historicshooting.com
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Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 1,080
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
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Nothing more than you would expect performance wise. This is a 375 300 gr taken from a lion after full body length penetration. It was hit in the chest and traveled the full 6 ft through the body to be recovered under the skin of the left rear leg. ![[Linked Image]](http://i1088.photobucket.com/albums/i322/PieterKriel/10_zpsdfbd5fbc.jpg) Same projectile: ![[Linked Image]](http://i1088.photobucket.com/albums/i322/PieterKriel/9_zpsef285ba9.jpg) Softer bullets like Woodleigh would be a better bet on soft skinned DG animals like lions and leopard. Higher velocity helps. See if your rifle likes Woodleigh or other premium grade softer ammo and you should be good. If there was any doubt, I would like the 375 over any of the other calibers mentioned for the reason you need one.
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Joined: May 2007
Posts: 1,867
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 1,867 |
That zebra was hit with a 480 grain FN cast bullet which went through and through and was not recovered. I'm not saying that a 375 won't kill a lion. I'm saying a 45-70 that holds nine is a good choice as well, especially if you have to deal with multiple cats at the same time.
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Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 32,044
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 32,044 |
Cats only in the USA , nothing would beat the good old 45-70 in a modern lever gun
A Doe walks out of the woods today and says, that is the last time I'm going to do that for Two Bucks.
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Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 23,368
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 23,368 |
My choice is the .450/400 NE double. Pondoro Taylor loved it for lion. 400 grain Woodleigh RN Soft points will turn even the biggest Simba into a rug. Not Simba, but this will give you and idea of what it will do. ![[Linked Image]](http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o151/gvblack/PICT0159.jpg)
"The Democrat Party looks like Titanic survivors. Partying and celebrating one moment, and huddled in lifeboats freezing the next". Hatari 2017
"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid." Han Solo
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Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 629
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
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You betcha. They either don't have a clue or don't want to admit it. If it was 45-70 H&H instead of 45-70 Govt., they would be all over it. Nope, Holland & Holland did better than a 45-70 after seeing what it could not do twenty years after the 45-70 was developed for our military. H&H developed a true sporting cartridge called the .500/450 Magnum Nitro Express design for double rifles during the late 1890s & Dangerous game hunting. It fires a .458-inch 480-grain projectile at over 2,100 feet per second to generate in excess of 5,000 foot-pounds force of muzzle energy. Which was a lot more powerful than the 45-70 Govt. during the same time period. My choice is the .450/400 NE double. Pondoro Taylor loved it for lion. 400 grain Woodleigh RN Soft points will turn even the biggest Simba into a rug. That's just a beauty, Both Rifle & Buff, Hatari!
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 42,617
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 42,617 |
gottdamn that is a hell of a buffalo. I still prefer speed (lots of it) mass and a proper bullet for lion...
A good principle to guide me through life: “This is all I have come to expect, standard lackluster performance. Trust nothing, believe no one and realize it will only get worse…”
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Joined: Sep 2010
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Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
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I still prefer speed (lots of it) mass and a proper bullet for lion... Yip, I agree fully! But on another note, let's be honest, we are really trying to split hairs here. What are we trying to prove? Whether we can expire the cat after 20yds or 18yds? You don't get deader than dead fellas. Any of the calibers mentioned here will get the job done, as long as you comfortable shooting your rifle and can place the bullet where it matters.
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