Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunter's Campfire Bush War

Gunny_Bob and I are in agreement on this in close order drill. All the saber
<br>rattlers and hard chargers need to step back and look at the BIG picture. We
<br>can swat Saddam like a fly and devastate most of Iraq from off shore. But do
<br>you want to end up the outcast rogue nation on the planet in his place?
<br>
<br>Sure we are as powerful a nation the planet has ever seen, so was Rome in it's
<br>time. We can not win the economic war with the rest of the world like we
<br>once could, we have "out sourced" too much of our production power to
<br>other nations.
<br>
<br>If Y'all all will settle for being a second rate economic power and a first rate
<br>bully, well then saddle up and head out ahead of the troops that will have to
<br>do the cleanup.
<br>
<br>Saddam is just like Fidel Castro, a dinosaur of a bygone age, he is a paper
<br>tiger and our government is using him as an excuse to wage an economic
<br>based war and lead the public down the primrose path of nationalism to do it.
<br>If we had been attacked by a nation state I would be the first to jump on the
<br>bandwagon to take names and kick ass, we weren't. We were hit by terrorists
<br>that hoped we would react by lashing out at the world and further cripple our
<br>credibility as a world leader. We do too much good and need to be
<br>discredited in the world view. They need to make us the bad guys to the
<br>world and if this keeps up they succeed and we lose, not militarily, morally.
<br>We become the bad guys and the Muslim world are the poor down trodden
<br>victim of "American Imperialism"
<br>
<br>My personal opinion is that if we do this, we will enter a new era of terrorism
<br>like the Izzies face on a daily basis right here at home. In the name of
<br>"national defense" we will lose most of our rights and freedoms and end up
<br>living a nation at siege right here at a neighborhood near you. Saddle stock
<br>will be at a premium and cars a luxury remembered.
<br>
<br>Do you really want your national budget dedicated to a massive military
<br>effort that will bankrupt us like it did the Soviet? I don't. I say instead of
<br>flogging Saddam, we hunt down and deal with the individual terror
<br>organizations. Much more cost effective IMHO.
<br>
<br>I am not gonna flog this dead horse any more, it is dead and that is it. GW
<br>will do what he wants to and we will pick up the tab, at least we aren't at the
<br>mercy of Al Bore or Klinton, it could be worse.
<br>

We never signed a peace treaty with Iraq, it was
<br>a cease fire.
<br>
<br>The Arab and UN nations would "hate" to see the
<br>USA end up taking down Iraq and putting in a
<br>Pro-Western Govt that would send it's oil to us.
<br>We would not be as relient on Saudi and Opec Oil and places us that much more a"head" of the rest of the UN
<br>nations, leaving them as the tail. The UN does not
<br>want us being THE power nation as we are. In geopolitics it also puts us in a power position for the
<br>vast oil/gas reserves that is north of Iraq as well.
<br>It's a control issue with Socialism as its agenda.
<br>
<br>Who knows, the next thing on the UN agenda would be
<br>to ban all firearms in the US.
<br>Thats just kinda of a dumb thought though.
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>

I don't know about you ground guys, but the air war in Iraq never ended. We are still attacking and killing Iraqi's--it just isn't news anymore.
<br>
<br>I too would just as soon not have another deployment over there. I would also rather have the Iraqi resistence make the regeime change happen, but they would probably need lots of support from our SOF.
<br>
<br>I do know this--what we have been doing since 1991 has done nothing but generate hate among the Iraqis toward us. We need to do something different.
<br>
<br>I have no problem acting unilaterally and us being considered a "rogue" nation by the Arabs and the Europeans. These folks ARE NOT our friends. They miss no opportunity to be anti-US. Ruffling their feathers a little will probably do more good in the long run. They will relearn the US means what we say. Further, these nations are more interested in what they can get from us through aid or trade than they are concerned with principle. I wonder if anyone over there even remembers what conducting themselves according to a principal is. Perhaps bringing the Iraqi conflict to an end vis increase in escalation will show them exactly what is meant by being guided by principal.
<br>
<br>Blaine

We have been the "nice guy" to many foreign nations since WWII, we are the first to give to any emergency, first to render aid to opressed nations, and are first to be yelled at, "yankee go home". Through our help to everyone we are labeled, "Evil American", they are getting ready to fight us regardless of what we do. The smaller nations run to who they think is the strongest and will win, for their own benefit.We have always been a peace loving nation and give to everyone now we have been attacked by the first wave, I for one don't want the second wave. Every day gives them more time to get ready. No one want's war but agression is hapening all over the world, it will be here next if we don't stop it quick. What have we received from the United Nations except a bill? -- no

I agree. We go to help these countries by ending wars, supplying food, etc, and in return we just get slapped in the face. I'm tired of that. I'm tired of these Anti-American crap all over the world, especially from Arab nations. I suggest we give them a reason to protest Anti-American crap after we gave them a swift lesson or two. These pathetic countries will be your friends the minute they need U.S.A. help, but once they received it, we just get stabbed in the back. I say to hell with those people. We're the sole superpower, so lets show these animals what a superpower can do.
<br>
<br>Watch out Iraq, because you're target number one!

Hmmm, no use in my parroting what Gunny Bob and T Lee have already said, but just because the US is a generous nation and just because we were attacked by a bunch of religious fanatics in a particularly heinous fashion, does not give us the authority, moral or otherwise to start taking out other world nations because we THINK they might have evil thoughts.
<br>
<br>If that was enough for convicting someone, quite a few males, I among them, would be convicted when we look at a beautiful woman. Not enough justification in either case IMO.
<br>
<br>Before I would agree to a declaration of war, which Bush said he would ask for, but now seems to have forgotten that minor detail, I want a smoking gun, not the fact that we didn't do it right the first time as the real reason.
<br>
<br>If we commit, I like most Americans will support our troops, but that doesn't mean I agree with the politics of it. Hmmm, does that sound familiar? Anyone who thinks that politics and war don't go hand in hand is young or has a very short memory.
<br>
<br>

We need a smoking gun?
<br>
<br>How about an assassination attempt on an american
<br>president? (this is brazen) and slaps our face
<br>
<br>How about using chemical weapons to kill its own
<br>civilians?
<br>
<br>How about state sponsored terrorism?
<br>
<br>Is there a statute of limitations and these no
<br>longer matter?
<br>
<br>Do we throw a few C/Ms at Iraq and hope they
<br>won't do it anymore?
<br>
<br>Dictators in the middle east or scared spitless their
<br>little applecarts are about to be upset.
<br>
<br>

If It Flies It Dies,
<br>
<br>Okay, so we should just leave Iraq alone because we THINK they have evil intentions? For one, I don't think, but know. Sounds cocky, doesn't it? Wrong. Try facts. You should be able to find them in the history books. With Saddam in power, Iraq will continue to be the same country it has been since it attacked Kuwait and dropped its bombs on Israel. And yes it does give us the authority to do the things like this. If we didn't, then who would? Nobody. Somebody(USA here) has to enforce and lay down some sort of laws. Sort of like how you see police officers in the streets, right? If the U.S.A. didn't do the things it does, then the Balkans would still be in a war, Kuwait would still be occupied, India and Pakistan would have dropped their nukes at each other years ago; Israel wouldn't even be a country, but overran decades ago, etc. I'm sure you get the picture.
<br>
<br>Also, why leave Iraq(Saddam) alone when it sponsors terrorism in the first place? Iraq is nothing but problems that needs to be dealt with once and for all.
<br>
<br>If you don't like how things are happening, don't watch the news. It's easy to pretend.

The Marine Times reported this morning that the Bush Administration will not present any evidence Iraq backed Al-Qaeda terrorists to the congress or the UN.
<br>
<br>The following is copied from an email brief I get every morning.
<br>
<br>U.S. Not Claiming Iraqi Link To Terror
<br>[Washington Post, September 10, 2002, Pg. 1]
<br>The Bush administration dropped what had been a central argument in favor of invading Iraq---no longer is it stated that Iraq has links to al Qaeda and other terrorist groups.
<br>
<br>I would like to believe everything the government spoon feeds me also, but I just don't have the stomach.
<br>
<br>Bob
<br>
<br>
<br>Blaine,
<br>Good luck and hope I don't need your services.
<br>
<br>Bob
<br>
<br>

That's the problem, we act like the police force to the world and are hated for it.Then we have to shove our weight around and then dole out aid to the victims of our efforts.
<br>
<br>Who made us the cop on the block? I call BS on that thinking, we don't need the grief. If there was still a war in the Balkin's, so what. If India and the Pakies nuke each other, so what. We have too many problems here at home to be worring about what all the third rate nations do on their own soil.
<br>
<br>If a nation state even tries to attack us, swat them like a fly. But till there is a clear tangible threat we need to hold our water. Even if he had nuke capability he still dosen't have delivery capability.
<br>
<br>Prove to me he is a "clear and present danger" to Americn sovereignty and I will jump right on the war bandwagon in a NY second.
<br>
<br>I was young, ten feet tall and bullet proof myself at one time. Thank God I lived through that faze to see the the world without rose colored glasses.
<br>
<br>Absolutly amazing what you can see once you lose the tunnel vision.
<br>
<br>The Law of Unintended Consequences is much more than an abstract theory, folks. It's all too real, and it's looking us square in the eye.
<br>
<br>I am not "intimidated" by the Islamic world. Vietnam did teach me a few things though. Respect your enemy and NEVER underestimate him or OVERESTIMATE your own capibilities.
<br>
<br>The best action is as some have stated, put him on notice and slap his fingers covertly first. Don't make him a martyr to the muslim world and put him in a corner. The Khadifi raid was a good move and might work again. Make no mistake, if Saddam get's even close to nuke capability the Izzies will knock his dic% in the dirt so fast we won't know about it till the dust is clearing.
<br>
<br>Over throwing him will only stiffen the muslim resolve, sorry but that is the truth.
<br>
<br>Saddam is just like Fidel Castro, a dinosaur of a bygone age, he is a paper tiger and our government is using him as an excuse to wage an economic based war and lead the public down the primrose path of nationalism to do it. If we had been attacked by a nation state I would be the first to jump on the bandwagon to take names and kick ass, we weren't. We were hit by terrorists that hoped we would react by lashing out at the world and further cripple our credibility as a world leader. We do too much good and need to be discredited in the world view. They need to make us the bad guys to the world and if this keeps up they succeed and we lose, not militarily, morally.
<br>
<br>We become the bad guys and the Muslim world are the poor down trodden victim of "American Imperialism"
<br>
<br>My personal opinion is that if we do this, we will enter a new era of terrorism like the Izzies face on a daily basis right here at home. In the name of "national defense" we will lose most of our rights and freedoms and end up living a nation at siege right here at a neighborhood near you. Saddle stock will be at a premium and cars a luxury remembered.
<br>
<br>Do you really want your national budget dedicated to a massive military effort that will bankrupt us like it did the Soviet? I don't. I say instead of flogging Saddam, we hunt down and deal with the individual terror organizations. Much more cost effective IMHO.
<br>
<br>I am not gonna flog this dead horse any more, it is dead and that is it. GW will in the end do what he wants to and we and our troops will pick up the tab, at least we aren't at the mercy of Al Bore or Klinton, it could be worse.
<br>

"Only overthrowing him will stiffen the Muslim resolve"
<br>
<br>I do have to disagree. This man is a bully and if left alone
<br>will have weapons of mass distruction. As in A, he already has BC.... Has/ Is he not trying?
<br>
<br>This man is no "Paper Tiger" , you just strayed from
<br>your own advise in" NEVER underestimating your enemy".
<br>
<br>Let's wait till he gets A, then send in the JIrenes.
<br>At least we will have proof to justify our sending them.
<br>
<br>Better yet, and I sincerly mean this. (I do agree on this)
<br>Let's just turn him/them over to Israel. At least
<br>the job will be completed. No BS world politics.
<br>They already know they are hated, so they dont
<br>have to worry about hurting someones feelings.
<br>
<br>I believe if we dont deal with it, WE will have terrorism
<br>like the Izzies.
<br>
<br>Through Arab propaganda we are already the bad guys.
<br>They believe we wrecked havoc on Bosnia!
<br>Might as well give them something to really talk about.
<br>
<br>I dont like political wars and I believe George W feels
<br>the same way. I also dont want to send my sons to any.
<br>This war is different. We learned from Vietman, but
<br>this is not Vietnam. Neither is it WW1 imperilism.
<br>
<br>I have somebody very close who flies in the left seat of
<br>a B1. I believe he is in Italy now, I dont want to see him fly east of there.
<br>But he is ready....and willing.
<br>
<br>

Something to ponder.
<br>
<br>One of the posters mentioned that the US didn't deserve the attacks on September 11th.
<br>
<br>Just think, are we really that great, or have we simply been blessed by God? I've met many good and decent folks in other countries that simply will never, ever, ever have the opportunities I or you have recieved in our lifetime, simply based on where we were born. With a blessing, which we have truly recieved by being born in this country, comes a humble thanks for the blessing, as well as a humility for the blessing.
<br>
<br>What, as a nation have we done with that blessing as of late? We have blasphemed it. We as a society have accepted that it is ok to murder unborn children by the millions, simply because it becomes an inconvience to peoples lifestyle. Hey, I don't want to be bothered by raising kids, so I'll snuff it out before it ever takes a breath. The rest of the moral decay in this country, and total lack of responsibility for one's own actions is too long to list, but it is all linked. How long do you think a loving and merciful God will allow this country to squander what was graciously given to it?
<br>
<br>Just as God can, and has blessed and protected us, he can take that blessing and protection away. I think our country is it's own worst enemy in respect to not acknowledging what we have, why we have it, and what it will take to keep it.
<br>
<br>I don't see Sadaam as the cause, nor solution to our problems, and agree that for us to attack a sovereign nation that has not directly attacked us is a very dangerous path to go down.

Gunny,
<br>
<br>If the war escalates, I sincerely hope my boys can get most of it done from afar before we risk you and your boys up close and personal. However, such is rarely the case.
<br>
<br>TLEE,
<br>
<br>On this we agree. We have no business being in the Middle East. They need us to buy their oil more than we need to buy it. I say let them handle their own problems.
<br>
<br>Everyone,
<br>
<br>Please don't forget, that we have been bombing Iraq on a continual basis since the supposed "end" of the Gulf War. Hostilities have never ceased. They need to one way or another.
<br>
<br>Blaine

Col. Hackworths take on Iraq. I do respect his opinion most of the time.
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>September 4, 2002
<br>
<br>Fifty-two years ago, on a cold day on the Korean front, my lieutenant gave me a copy of Chinese Gen. Sun Tsu�s classic The Art of War. I've been a disciple ever since; the book has become my military bible, and I read a passage daily.
<br>
<br>Sun Tzu lays it all out: Know your enemy; the art of war cannot be neglected; all warfare is based on deception; the highest form of generalship is to balk the enemy's plans; make sure the enemy threat is real.
<br>
<br>Wise thinking about war and peace that Bush 43 should borrow from to help him counter the counsel of his advisers baying for Saddam's head. And since nobody has yet come up with sufficient justification for our grunts laying their lives on the line, the war gang would do well to slow down and study this brilliant Chinese general's words as well.
<br>
<br>By the way, none of these hawks � not one of whom ever wore a soldier suit, even though most were of draft age back during the dark days of Vietnam � or their sons or daughters will be accompanying our warriors on their march to Baghdad. As usual, it will be a war fought by mainly blue-collar Americans with no vested interests in the oil business.
<br>
<br>Back in 1991, when Stormin' Norman had the Iraqi army on the ropes, Super-Hawk Dick Cheney knew that Saddam had WMD (weapons of mass destruction) � but he still went along with Bush 41's decision to let the perps walk. Cheney should have stood in the door when 41 made that bad call and insisted we take out Saddam while we had the world behind us, and the forces on the ground to do the job. Or he should have resigned.
<br>
<br>Yet 11 years later, Cheney is the main cheerleader for attacking Iraq because � breaking news � Saddam has chemical and bio weapons. And, he keeps telling us, Saddam now also has nukes.
<br>
<br>Even though many experts say it isn't so, let's buy into Cheney's pitch and agree that Iraq has a few small nuclear warheads. The question then becomes: �Can he land them in New York City or Los Angeles?� The answer is: �No.�
<br>
<br>Saddam just doesn't have the fleets of ICBMs that we and 43's new best friend, Russian President Vladimir Putin, do. All he can muster at most are a few-dozen wheezing Scud missiles, onto which he could try to screw his alleged nuke warheads. On a good day, these throwbacks to the Vietnam era would have a range of 100 miles and be about as accurate as a blind man firing a shotgun at the sound of a bat in a forest.
<br>
<br>During the 50-year Cold War � the good old days through post-9/11 eyes � the Soviets had approximately 50,000 nukes. About half were capable of zipping across our oceans and turning our country into a radiated inferno. But we never took the Sovs out, even when their leader hammered his shoe and warned the United Nations that he was going to bury us. Even when we knew Soviet soldiers had one hand on the nuclear button while the other was holding the bottles of vodka they were slugging down.
<br>
<br>The hairiest time during the Cold War was when the Soviets deployed nuclear missiles to Cuba. The 90 miles from launch to target brought us to the brink, because we'd have all been glowing before our missiles could have struck back. Jack Kennedy demanded the Soviets get �em out, or U.S. Marines and paratroopers would. But first he got on the tube and told us the way it was: That we had documented U-2 shots of Soviet missiles, soldiers and launchers in Cuba. That we had no choice � we had to take them out, and the risk was worth the gain. Because he made his case, the American people said, �Do it, Jack.�
<br>
<br>Our president must bring us equally convincing reasons for going to war with Iraq. And it's going to be a stretch for 43 to prove that Iraq's WMD are a clear and present danger to our country when they're apparently not threatening the Middle Eastern states within their range, states whose leaders have so loudly said, �USA, don't use the military solution.�
<br>

Good post, T Lee, and anyone who know anything about Hackworth knows he is not a closet peacenik. He is a true warrior that has forgotten more about killing people than most people even want to think about, much less do.
<br>
<br>He calls it like it is. For him, at this point, there isn't a compelling reason for the US to go to war. And he is absolutely right. Now if Israel wants to take them out, they have the US's blessings as far as I am concerned, but, wait, we can't say that in public, might upset our supposed arab friends over there. Yeah, right.
<br>

Several good posts here. I just want to throw in my own take on the whole deal. Right now I don't see an invasion of Iraq. Iraq or Saddam has not attacked us and terrorist groups have. Maybe a link maybe not but at least not proven yet. I am with APF on enforcing the no fly zone rules and commit enough forces to do that effectively. Now there is no doubt he is a danger but not an immediate one. Terrorists organizations are. And that is who we declared war on is it not? Go after them. Go after them the same way the Israeles do. Kill them any way you can, bulldoze their houses, kick their friends and family out of the country and sow salt on the ground where they were.
<br>Forget this old west mentality of face to face at high noon in the middle of the street. Assassinate the leaders any way you can. Admitedly our intel organizations are not as good as the Mossad or as the KGB used to be, we need to take lessons. How do you think the Israels know which car to hit with a rocket? Which house? Intel and spy don't you think. We can do the same thing. And we should. We need to buy some people over there and make sure they stay bought on pain of death. Where is it written that if you threaten me and vow to kill me and I know you have the demonstrated means to do so I am supposed to stand there and be a target? Hell, I am going to ambush you before you get a chance and blow your flipping head off from hiding.
<br>Take that one eyed dude in Pakastan that is always spouting off on TV and claiming his terrorist schools don't have a part in this. Bull cookies. We know what he looks like and we know where he is. Take him out.
<br>Or that guy you see sitting beside Bin Laden and imitating a pump jack. Same deal take him. Or that blasted Arab TV station don't tell me we don't have the smarts to arrange an unfortunate explosion.
<br>One heck of a big difference between taking on a handfull of cutthroats and a whole nation like Iraq too. Also an assassination is a heck of a lot cheaper than a cruse missle or a smart bomb. Give the Kurds any thing they want they can work on Saddam. Tell the TV reporters to take a hike and keep our mouths shut and go after the ones who really plan to do us grief. Forget the PC bull about not offending some goat worshiper. Just do it and go on about business. Deny everything.
<br>End of tirade.
<br>
<br>BCR

Ha Ha, Rifle and Tank rounds are the last thing we need UMAV's, Cruise Missles, Laser guided bombs are the Only weapons that will be needed in this war and any other future war. Laser weapons, space weapons rule the day for our childrens defence.
<br>
<br>Personal weapons are for home protection from our
<br>local citizens. Not needed in war.
<br>
<br>

Sadly,it doesn't work like that,Bin Laden didn't get caught,or for that matter many of his top advisers.

BenLaden is Dead. Buried in Toro Boro Mountains in a cave thanks to the USAF, and B52 strikes.
<br>
<br>NO worries Mate

I do try to keep it civil. I will however give in this time. If Y'all find it offensive, sorry but this is ridiculous. High tech, teflon coated, low drag, go fast weapons only go so far, the trooper on the ground still has to do the dirty work of mopping up and holding the ground. BCR has the best idea IMHO, or CAT with letting the Izzies have at em, they definitely have more at stake in the region than we do.
<br>
<br>Infidelofone, GO BACK TO PLAYING YOUR VIDEO GAMES!
<br>
<br>All that high tech stuff is usless without flesh and blood human beings to back it up.
<br>
<br>THIS IS NOT A HOLLYWEIRD MOVIE IT IS REAL LIFE!
<br>
<br>People on both sides of a war BLEED and DIE. Murphy rules the battlefield not a computer.
<br>
<br>GROW UP!