Home Forums Hunting & Shooting General Big Game If you know what "Devils Club" is you gotta see this!

These photo's are from two seperate trips this fall with the goats. The second from the last picture I had to post because nobody would belive it without a photo. Yes they eat every single plant they can find, until I drag them away from it. If they had their way it would take all day to hike anyplace with all the food available! Since I hate Devils club I usually let them eat what's in reach of the trail. Devils Club is probably one of the most nasty and painful plants in the PNW thousands of needle sharp thorns on the stalk and the worse ones are on the bottoms of the leaves because they break off in your skin so easy and are a bugger to dig out. A big Leaf may have hundreds if not thousands of thorns up to a 1/2" long and really as sharp as a pin. How do they do it?
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<br>http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?show_all=1&start=1&id=4291586573

Now that's what I've been waiting to see! Thanks for the picture JJ!
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<br>That stuff does look pretty mean. It doesn't suprise me that goats will eat it though I'm suprised they don't graze on each others packs while they're marching along!!
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<br>Mike

JJHack,
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<br>Wow, I wouldn't have guessed that anything could eat that stuff! Tough critters indeed!
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<br>Here's a quote from another website about Devils Club...
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<br><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr><p>Devils Club, Oplopanax horridus
<br>The plant was used for many ailments, such as stomach ulcers, thyroid conditions, syphilis, diabetes and as an emetic, cough syrup and a laxative. Various parts of the plant were ground into powders for external poultices for arthritis and rheumatism or fresh pieces were laid on open pieces.<p><hr></blockquote>
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<br>Here's another quote, with a possible hint for Spike, as he hunts Elk...
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<br><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr><p>Although untouched by deer, the foliage is sought after by elk, and bear relish the bright red berries. The sharp spines themselves are not poisonous, but they break off in the skin, are difficult to remove, and may become infected.
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<br>Devil's Club is a relative of ginseng, and was an important medicinal plant among aboriginal peoples. It has been extensively used in the treatment of diabetes, arthritis, rheumatism, digestive disorders, colds, skin problems, and many other conditions.<p><hr></blockquote>
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<br>A bit more...
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<br><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr><p>The roots and shoots of Devils club are edible. The shoots are only edible for the first few days after they appear in early spring, however. The time to harvest is when the spiny stalk first sprouts green growth. The leaf spines, though visible, are soft and pliable at this stage. Once they stiffen, however, the shoots should NOT be eaten. The leaf clusters may be nibbled raw, or added to omelets, casseroles, and soups like a spice. One or two is enough to add a unique tang to a common meal.
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<br>Spring is also the prime season for harvesting the roots which are usually ground into a powder and made into a tea. Aleuts in Prince William sound drink the tea for cold and pain relief. Bark infusions have also been used for arthritis, black eyes, gall stones, stomach ulcers, and constipation. Pastes and poultices are used for relieving pain and swelling from insect bites and stings. Individuals with low blood sugar should be aware that devils club lowers blood sugar levels.<p><hr></blockquote>

If you click on the thumbnail a larger picture appears. Then by clicking the larger photo, it will enlarge to a huge photo and you can see the spines or thorns on the stalk.

When I was a kid a Swedish neighbor named "Old George" Larsen cut devils club each spring. He peeled the bark off and boiled it, and called the result his spring tonic. As I recall, it tasted terrible but all my family would drink a bit and it didn't hurt us. On the other hand I don't know if it did any good for us either. Whatever, devil's club is as mean as cactus if you brush into it . "Old George" lived to be 103 years so maybe he had something. Interesting old guy; he had been the Captain of a number of sail powered Clipper ships and could sure put away his share of over proof rum. Claimed he went to sea at age 10 and hardly set foot on shore until he retired. Used to buy Copenhagen by the several rolls. If it dried out before he opened a tub he just added over-proof and let it sit for a bit. Wish I hadn't been so young when he was still alive, I might remember more: such as the time he opened his outhouse door and came yelling over to our cabin about the "big black bear bugger" that was in his crapper. My, that's a while ago.

The spike elk I shot last fall dropped dead on a steep slope, right in a patch of Devil's Club. It did not make for a fun skinning and dismembering job. Rufous.

All I can say is OUCH! Devils Club is not my friend....
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<br>You only use it for TP once!

I'll have to admit, I've never heard of backpacking with a goat. I've always carried my own. Is that a special pack harness assemble?
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<br>I guess if you run into a Grizz, all you have to do is outrun the goat? :-)
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My tack is made by a man in Idaho who makes the saddles out of aluminum and the bags he designed are made by a lady in Boise.

Pack goats are becoming popular with some of the "over the hill" back packers here in the Marble Mountains of northern California. Llamas have pretty much run their course.

"I guess if you run into a Grizz, all you have to do is outrun the goat?"
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<br>Trouble is you probably would come in a poor second in that race!

Bob
<br>Why don't people use llamas anymore? There's a few llama farms around my way, although I never thought of hiring one to carry my stuff. It wouldn't be a bad idea, maybe?
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<br>JJ
<br>I posted over in the Bear section of Jesses forum asking you a question regarding cameras used on gated roads. (It was in a thread you started about mountain biking) Any chance you could give me an answer if you have time? I'd appreciate it alot, thanks...
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<br>Also, is there anything your goats can't get over/around/through? Do they have to stick to trails, or are are they "all terrain"

They are 100% all terrain. They can walk anyplace you can walk and they can walk/ climb down things you cannot. I have had to slide on my a$$ and hang on for dear life in some rocky areas to get down from places. Anyone who has climbed in the mountians knows you can get yourself in trouble real quick going up into places you cannot get down from. Going up is way safer and easier then coming down. Usually because you can't look down when going up, but only look down when coming down.
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<br>The goats have "4Wheel drive" those four hooves with their rearends dragging will lower them down awful steep places. Plus if they start to slide they just jump and bounce on their hooves down the hill and then look up at you wondering why you're taking so long. Just better have the gear packed well because it can get banged up pretty good. I use rubbermaid containers inside the Panniers to protect the contents, works like a dream. I don't even get smashed bread, or eggs anymore.
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<br>I'll go visit Jesse's and see the other question.

Gatehouse,
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<br>Llamas seemed to be a status thing around here. Sierra Club and Audobon types went in for them, and we would see them in the mountains around here decked out in sombreros and ponchos like they were down in South America somewhere. Also, the llamas were very expensive.
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<br>I know a local couple who still keep a few llamas for their own use, but they used to breed and sell them. They told me that the bottom fell out of the llama market, and you can hardly give them away now. I guess the fad ran its course.
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<br>If you're not into horses and mules, goats make more sense. Heck of a lot cheaper than what llamas used to sell for; and they tell me that pound for pound a goat will pack more weight.

The reason Llamas did not work out well was due to the personality problems many of them have. Llamas are much like Domestic cats in that they tolerate humans and deal with humans when they want to. They don't bond to people as a dog will.
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<br>Llamas do pack a lot of weight and make a decent pack animal when packed a real lot. They will not pack well when used intermittantly for recreation like a half dozen trips a year or so. When packed several trips a month they tend to get with the program a bit better.
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<br>Goats on the other hand are very much like dogs in that they will fight with each other to be the one walking next to you on a trail. If you get out of sight they will start bawling and running to catch up. They never want to be left behind. Quite often I will take only 4 on a trip and leave the others in the pasture. My wife says they run the fence line desperately searching for a way out and bleat constantly for an hour or more after I'm gone.
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<br>Llamas cannot compare to the dedication a goat has to a human. I have never seen another animal that will put out so much effort to stay with the group and work as hard. Not all goats are created equal though. I have had some that walk a mile and lay down refusing to continue. They don't stay around long when this behaviour shows up. I have probably had 25 different goats in the last 7-8 years and out of that amount only 2-3 were really worthless. Some were never raised to pack but came to me as adults that I tried to train. That does not often work, at least for me.
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<br>The Alpine breed and Oberhalsie breed are excellent. So is the lamancha. The biggest breed saneens (250-300 pounds) I have had poor luck with. They pack 60 pounds plus but have to many health issues and a short packing life. Those giant 300 pound floppy eared nubian goats are 100% worthless packers.
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<br>Some of the best packers are a cross between some of the bigger breeds and Alpine or Ober's.

Going with goats; Couple travels with pack goats along Pacific Northwest Trail
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<br>E. Kirsten Peters
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<br>Is it possible to have a pleasant trip carrying 259 pounds of gear over 125 miles of wilderness trails that range up to 7,000 feet in elevation?
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<br>Keith Smith and Mary Fauci say the answer is "yes" - with the help of four friendly goats.
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<br>"We've been doing goat-packing trips for about 10 years," Smith said.
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<br>The couple, who live between Genesee and Moscow, have just returned from a long-distance hiking trip in the Pasayten Wilderness Area in north-central Washington, near Oroville. Four goats helped the pair, and their friend Mike Dawson, walk an isolated stretch of the Pacific Northwest Trail, which connects Olympic National Park in western Washington to Glacier National Park in Montana.
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<br>The couple's two larger goats are 2 1/2 years old. They weigh close to 200 pounds and can carry about 25 percent to 30 percent of their body weight in well-balanced packs.
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<br>"We started packing with them when they were really little," Fauci said. "They carried soft dog-packs."
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<br>The Saanen goats are neutered males. They are strongly bonded to their owners who bottle-fed them when they were kids.
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<br>"We tied them up at night, not because they would leave us but because we didn't want them coming into our tent," Smith said.
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<br>Goats have a strong herding instinct and will follow their owners up and down steep trails without ropes or lines.
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<br>"They keep going, even when they're tired, rather than be left behind," Fauci said. "They're sort of like a dog following you around."
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<br>The couple's recent trip in the Pasayten wilderness lasted two weeks. Unlike some other pack animals, goats can live on what they eat along the trail. Browsing on small plants, grasses, thimble berry, currant bushes and pine needles, the goats spread out the impact of their browsing on the local ecosystem.
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<br>"Everything around is one big buffet for them," Smith said.
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<br>Given a couple of hours to eat, goats can walk 10 miles per day and carry enough weight that their owners need only carry light day-packs.
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<br>"We mosey along with the goats behind us. It's a slow pace, but it gives us time to do birding and look at the wildflowers," Fauci said.
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<br>Showing photographs from their trip, Fauci and Smith noted the beauty of the Pasayten Wilderness. Conditions were mostly dry and sunny on their trip.
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<br>In addition to the pair of Saanen goats, Smith and Fauci have two younger goats that are just learning to enjoy wilderness packing trips. Because they are not fully grown, they carried lighter packs on the couple's recent trip.
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<br>The younger goats are neutered male Alpine goats. The Alpine breed is slightly more independent than the Saanens, but still might remind a visitor more of a friendly dog than a standoffish cat.
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<br>"The goats have been useful around here, too," Smith said. "They packed out an elk that a friend of ours shot. And before that they packed out two deer (from the woods of northern Idaho)."
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<br>The goats have "pulled us on skis and they hauled a Christmas tree out of the woods for us, too," Fauci added. "But we haven't put in the time with them to teach them to pull a cart."
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<br>As might be expected of the young, the two Alpine goats spend a great deal of time enjoying life.
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<br>"They play a lot when they're young," Smith said. "They climb up anything they can and they jump. They'll do 180s (turns) when they run. And they smack their heads together, too."
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JJ,
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<br>"Unlike some other pack animals, goats can live on what they eat along the trail. Browsing on small plants, grasses, thimble berry, currant bushes and pine needles, the goats spread out the impact of their browsing on the local ecosystem.
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<br>"Everything around is one big buffet for them," Smith said.
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<br>Given a couple of hours to eat, goats can walk 10 miles per day and carry enough weight that their owners need only carry light day-packs."
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<br>Have you had any trouble with your goats eating poisonous plants? I have found the remains of dead llamas (what the bears left) a couple of times; and on one occasion an unlucky llama packer left a note at a trailhead warning others that his llama died from eating native vegetation. I suspect larkspur.
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<br>There are cattle in most places here in the mountains, and occasionally I have heard of cattle dieing from eating larkspur. We pack with horses and mules here, and commonly turn them loose to graze near camp, and have had no such trouble; but horses and mules don't seem as likely to eat the stuff, or at least it doesn't affect them to the extent that it does some other animals.
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Among the people I know with goats, and it's not too many they have often spoken of problems like this but I don't know of any goats actually dying. They eat kind of odd on the trail. When they find vine maple, big leaf maple, black bearies, nettles, devils club, and some others they will eat until there is nothing left. But most other plants they will only nibble on and move along. Theory has it that they dilute any bad plants within the whole load they have consumed. Theory also says they will die if they fill up on or are only allowed to eat the poisonous plants. My pasture is filled with digitalus plants( foxglove) it's deadly poisonous but they will not eat it. Same with Braken fern. the whole of western washington is filled with it. They take a few bites but mostly ignore it. Rhodadendrons are a huge warning for livestock. My goats got out of the pasture and ate every one of my wifes plants. some were huge. They never showed any illness and were fine?
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<br>I think goats can process most things that might make other animals sick. They also mix the things they eat within those huge stomachs that it's all pretty diluted. I guess I'll find out the hard way some time?

You fellas really have me convinced. I'm just dying to try a goat packing trip.
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<br>So how much load should you put on a goat?

Me too!
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<br>I've got 6 acres..
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<br>Maybe goats are in my future.:)
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