Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunter's Campfire A Family of Cartridges

Another thing, for just sizing down necks anything will do. Stressproof, or 12L14 turn real easy. For loading dies I might try cutting some Ferro-Tic and sending it to heat treat. After polishing you would have a carbide die that will last longer than any of our grandkids will be around.

Will break radio silence and add on my observations with 220 Howell in the Richards/Nesika.

As mentioned the batch of Bertram brass in my possession needed a bit of fiddling with. It has to be full-length sized (with the shellholder touching the die) to even fit into the chamber. I thought at first they were also too long, but subsequent checks reveal this chamber will accept cases over the 0.240" spec.

The necks are thick, so much so that cases fired with a moderate load will not accept a bullet. I have experimented with giving them an inside neck reaming before sizing and this seems to work. I have a precision/benchrest outside neck turner enroute and will give that a try as soon as it arrives.

Greg, the cases I sent you are of course from this batch and you should be able measure them. My caliper mic does not work all that well for this.

These cases also show up to a 6-grain variation in weight in any given handful. I will be sorting them later on.

The good news is that it performs as advertised - launches high BC bullets at reasonable speeds with moderate pressure. I have been using moderate loads of MagPro, Ramshot Magnum and 7828ssc and have had good results with all of them. These are calculated to be in the 50-55K psi range and were all in the 3300 to 3500 fps range. I have resisted the urge to hotrod this, but there can be no doubt there is more on top.

If anyone is interested in detailed results, drop me a PM.

I have gotten sub-0.300" groups with this outfit off a wobbly Varmintmaster bench, using a 4.5x14 Leupold with B&C reticle and old eyes. Hard to say what it would do in the hands of a better shooter.

I've made some .220 Howell cases from .25-06 brass.

Takes more than one step. (One step just shortens the case to 2.4 inches with a very wrinkled upper body.)

� An 8x57mm sizer massages the outside of the shoulder down. (1.8230 from the face of the bolt)
� A 7x57mm sizer backed-off about a tenth of an inch massages the upper shoulder down to where the base of the neck is going to be. (2.0250 from the bolt face)
� The .220 Howell sizer and a trim to 2.4000 finish the job. (Neck-turning? Maybe. I don't remember, yea or nay.)

Some of you are aware of this, but AHR stocks headstamped 220 Howell brass for what seems a reasonable price. This is from Bertram, and may or may not be any better than the stuff I have. It is sort of a wash - buy this and mess with it or go through the do-it-yourself operation.

Every time I discuss a possible future 220 Howell shoot-out with Paul and Dennis, I smell fear.

I s'pose the misery's about the same either way � whether you make Bruce's head-stamped abominations shootable or make your own cases from scratch.

Me, I'd rather convert good .25-06 brass � especially if RCBS, Hornady, Redding, or Forstner will make form dies available.

(Either way, as a senility salad, I'm out of it � so y'all carry-on!)

I noticed that, FWIW, Quality Cartridge is planning to run both .240 Hawk and 6mm-06 cases sometime this year. YMMV, of course. perhaps they'd work a little better than .25-06 cases?

I also learned that Midway has a single box of .22 Neidner brass on hand. Also FWIW, YMMV, just in case you have a .22 Neidner

Love the two first steps / shoulder bump.

From there STILL pretty firm about using 3 steps (incremental) to final Neck Od.

NO turning,....REAM

There is NO WAY that you'll get the quality produced by running this fairly simple and straightforward evolution outta the Bertram stuff I've got here,.....

Couple or four cases are nowhere NEAR what's needed by way of a quantity to even bother genning up a neck wall thickness spreadsheet.

Hell 100 cases is pretty lean, as regards that little stunt.

...then there's this little " redesigned for Stronger bases" imp flitting about in the wings.As some of you know I've got a little eye / hands on in that curiculum.

Little too squirrelly, this 'Factory brass"

I'd chit can ALL of that stuff, myself.

Semper re-formed 20-06

Tex, the brass you mentioned may be a whisker short, or JUST long enough. The 25-06's little extra COAL smiles on this basic re-forming operation,....in the time the main perps have spent wringin' this out, we could have made 10,000 reformed PERFECT cases.

GTC

GTC

There's more to consider than dimensions, of course. The continuum of hardnesses as shown in the lower left drawing on page 17 of my cartridge book is at least as important as the inches. Quality Cartridge's stuff may be good. I just don't know.

And of course I hafta wonder why 6mm-06 brass might be preferable to .25-06 brass.





That's Niedner, by the away, not "Neidner" (if it's safe to assume that the old guy knew how to spell his own name).

And it's NEED-ner, not NIGHd-ner.

Greg, study the lower left drawing on page 60 of my cartridge book and tell me what and why you find in error there.

Keep in mind that as a functional part of the breech, the case is simultaneously
� a gas gasket sealing the breech
� a capsule (and jig) holding the primer and the powder charge
� a jig to position (ideally) the longitudinal axis of the bullet with the longitudinal axis of the bore

Remember also that cartridge brass, unlike lead, springs back to its "normal" position whenever it's forced slightly away from it then released. The closer that one can form his cases to "perfect" alignment, the better. We certainly don't want an otherwise adequate alignment jig holding its bullet even slightly out of alignment with the center line of the bore.

Thanks - Midway has it spelled Neidner on their site, and I copied their spelling.

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/92...2-neidner-box-of-20?cm_vc=ProductFinding

My thought on the 6mm-06 brass was that it would be worked a little less than the .25-06 brass in necking down, and might give less trouble with neck thickness.

Of course, I confess I haven't done any severe case reforming, since the time I made .22-250's out of .308's

So no one has real chronographed data?

Well, Greg, your evaluation of the capabilities of this brass has given me some serious inferiority pangs. My plan is to sort this, get a true capacity measure like the big (benchrest) boys do, give it my best amateur efforts and hope/pray for better results. I expect better groups very soon.


But -- I am quite sure you can do much better, so when/if your brass is up and playing and actually a fact, send me some and I will do my best to evaluate it. If it can make better groups in my rifle than this re-habbed, rebuilt stuff I have, I will publicly tip my hat to you.

Time to walk the walk, amigo - Cheers, Joe

NO, Joe's brass [ammo] was not safe without neck turning or reaming first. It also had to be full length resized before it could chamber. A fired case would not accept a bullet. Period. I don't think this is acceptable for a hunting rifle and not acceptable for a target rifle unless you carefully turn every neck to exacting dimensions so that you can seat bullets without resizing- certainly very advanced handloading technique. If I want to use AHR brass as it is, I have to make some changes to the chamber. Bertram did not get it right apparently.


I typed this before I read the rest of the responses after Ken's comment about Joe's brass working. I am going to make some brass from 25-06 and see how it turns out before I dink with the reamer specs. IF I were to use AHR brass, I would have to either neck turn it or use a bigger chamber or both. As a rule, I don't like to full-length resize new brass before I load it. It should fit.

I cannot find brass for sale on AHR website, only sample rounds that their disclaimer suggests they should never be fired. Kind of a dumb company I think.

Well - Dennis and I don't even HAVE a .220H, and there are none to buy - so fear is far off. A lot of work and prep to do.

And, that's a fabulous rifle Joe - it would take some great work to beat you. But - aaahh - think of the ecstasy if an ant miraculously overcomes a behemoth.

There's another excellent possibility, now that I'm not the only one who's interested in this plaything.

If enough of us can come-up with enough money in guaranteed preproduction sales, maybe we can get my friend "Buzz" Huntington (Fred's son) at www.huntingtons.com to order a run of .220 Howell cases from somebody like Norma or Winchester.

Wouldn't that be nice?

Worth a shot?

I'm in for some, just to get the ball rolling and the fur flying.

Maybe Rick can even be inveigled to make 'em available as an item in the "Outfitter's Gear Shop". He probably makes enough now to keep him in beer and bubble gum, but another profit string won't bother him, I'm sure.

Read my lips � and my written words.

I said "Joe's ammo," not "Joe's brass."

Joe's brass had been neck-reamed and resized before he loaded the ammo that he, you, and Paul shot.

No one has alleged or implied that it was safe without that special treatment.

Wasn't aware that this was a group size event.

Walk the walk on how you're detecting and identifying the pre "stronger case heads" lot,....from 'tother. That text BY DEFINITION indicates that the brass pimp himself acknowledges turning out WEAK cases.

Replicating THAT stunt could see one having to walk with a white cane.

Hey, they're your eyes.

Tip your hat to THAT.

GTC

This

GTC

A very quiet Campfire compa�ero PMed me several months ago about launching a new company to manufacture cartridge brass. At that time, interest in the .220 Howell was moldering in the back woods.

Haven't heard from him in months. Have just PMed him to have a long session with this thread.

Greg, this brass is all over the place weight-wise. I was not aware of the fact that some cases might be of a different design.

I am aware of the fact this warty stuff should probably have been sent back to the maker, but 13 or 14 years have gone by.

My efforts are being directed toward getting what I have as uniform as possible. I have a pretty good supply of once-fired cases by now - these have survived moderate loads and will be blueprinted to my humble specs.

I seriously doubt if you'll hear of me blowing this rifle up.

Dennis, some of the stuff we shot was in fact unreamed and unturned. These were the fired cases that would not accept a bullet. In looking over the chrono results, it appears there is no significant velocity difference between reamed and unreamed brass at low pressures, nor was there any evidence of too-high pressure on the brass. That seems to go against conventional wisdom. One way or the other, I am done experimenting with thick necks. As mentioned, I have a 21st Century outside turner enroute which should help establish actual neck thickness, as it uses a mandrel. Thanks for the advice on that.

On the AHR brass subject, I spoke with Wayne last week and he says he does have 220 in stock. Hey - it even has the proper headstamp

Adios, Joe