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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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Joe, I can cobble up an "Indicator Micrometer" SPECIFIC to measuring your .220 H necks and get it fired off your way within a week. Will use one of several .0001" reading indicators that are laying around on the floor  Having measured brass in the 500s at a time mode looking for a "Bell Curve", whether rim thickness or neck thickness, always found the minimal time it takes to cobble one up well spent. Will also throw in a "Never" sweat spread sheet with the calibrations interploated into actual thicknesses,....one can measure with one hand, and put the tic marks on the sheet with the other. FAST being the operative word. Awaiting a launch order, if you're interested in applying / recording /reporting. GTC
Member, Clan of the Border Rats
-- “Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on or by imbeciles who really mean it.”- Mark Twain
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Sounds great - as mentioned, I will take all the help I can get with this stuff.
Time for me to upgrade my micrometer.
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Campfire Outfitter
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No, Joe's brass was not safe without neck turning or reaming first. It also had to be full length resized before it could chamber. A fired case would not accept a bullet. Period. � Read my lips � and my written words. I said "Joe's ammo," not "Joe's brass." Joe's brass had been neck-reamed and resized before he loaded the ammo that he, you, and Paul shot. No one has alleged or implied that it was safe without that special treatment. You weren't there. READ my text. I said that a bullet would NOT fit back into a fired case. Some of his AMMO had neck reamed brass but only some of it. My whole point is that the Bertram brass as shipped by AHR cannot be used without considerable work.
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Those who live by the sword get shot by those who don't.
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Campfire Outfitter
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Greg, this brass is all over the place weight-wise. I was not aware of the fact that some cases might be of a different design. I am aware of the fact this warty stuff should probably have been sent back to the maker, but 13 or 14 years have gone by. My efforts are being directed toward getting what I have as uniform as possible. I have a pretty good supply of once-fired cases by now - these have survived moderate loads and will be blueprinted to my humble specs. I seriously doubt if you'll hear of me blowing this rifle up. Dennis, some of the stuff we shot was in fact unreamed and unturned. These were the fired cases that would not accept a bullet. In looking over the chrono results, it appears there is no significant velocity difference between reamed and unreamed brass at low pressures, nor was there any evidence of too-high pressure on the brass. That seems to go against conventional wisdom. One way or the other, I am done experimenting with thick necks. As mentioned, I have a 21st Century outside turner enroute which should help establish actual neck thickness, as it uses a mandrel. Thanks for the advice on that. On the AHR brass subject, I spoke with Wayne last week and he says he does have 220 in stock. Hey - it even has the proper headstamp  Adios, Joe If you recall, we found several pieces of brass that had ejector marks in them. This is caused by high pressure, the cause of which we had not determined. It could have been the lack of clearance around the neck. I wanted to fire the same exact load and piece of brass AFTER neck turning it to see if it relieved the pressure in the absence of piezo electric testing we are limited in methods to do this
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Those who live by the sword get shot by those who don't.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Has anybody checked the chamber of this rifle to see what the real neck diameter is? I may be just fine for a "fitted neck".
The first time I shot myself in the head...
Meniere's Sucks Big Time!!!
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Campfire Ranger
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Very interesting thread, in any case. (no pun intended  ) I after buying some surplus rifles from a relative I seem to be suddenly awash in sporterized Mausers. I had been thinking about a fast twist .22-250 AI, but the 220 could work in one of these rifles, too.
"...the designer of the .270 Ingwe cartridge!..."
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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Has anybody checked the chamber of this rifle to see what the real neck diameter is? I may be just fine for a "fitted neck". With a rather unique, but certainly VIABLE methodology, I HAVE done just that, and KNOW what the reamer used cuts for a finished neck dia. ....it's the Bloody same as what any American .224 standard cartridge neck dia is. certainly not baggy at .257", but in NO way a "Tight necked" chamber. "Ejector marks" ? .......BRRRrrrrrrr 
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Dennis, I recall you showed me a case that had an ejector mark - that was surely an unreamed case. I have since looked all fired cases in direct sunlight (wearing reading glasses) and did not note any major marks - but then I am used to looking at fired Weatherby factory ammo that definitely marks brass.
As mentioned, there is no velocity difference between reamed and unreamed brass. One way or the other, though, I won't be firing any more unmolested (virgin..) brass.
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That is good that there are no more marks. Maybe it was just the tight necks at that point.
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Campfire Ranger
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And it may be that the proven positive potential of the cartridge deserves more than nit-picking around the edges.
"Good enough" isn't.
Always take your responsibilities seriously but never yourself.
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My take is that it is a good design, especially the longish neck. I have gotten some very consistent strings and good accuracy. There can be no doubt that it burns lots of powder for a .22  My only squawk is with the brass. Getting it just right appears to be an ongoing project.
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Campfire Ranger
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� it burns lots of powder for a .22 � That's the ballistic "secret" for getting more velocity from any given barrel length and for any given bullet diameter at acceptable average peak pressures. Interior ballistics, for all that's factually known about it, is still crammed with elusive mysteries. One that I ponder a lot � Very often, a larger powder charge produces both more velocity and more unburnt powder. I have my own theoretical explanation, but I don't know why this happens. If the added powder doesn't burn (produce more propelling gas), how does it increase velocity? If anybody here really knows how, I'd love to learn!
"Good enough" isn't.
Always take your responsibilities seriously but never yourself.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Ken, I have no scientific basis for this whatsoever (nor any scientific qualifications, for that matter), but thought I'd mention it anyway. Could that extra powder, even though (or maybe especailly because) it doesn't burn, serve to reduce the capacity of the case, thereby upping the pressure/speed? Please be gentle if that is so far off-base that it could be picked off by a pitcher with a lousy move to first. 
Not a real member - just an ordinary guy who appreciates being able to hang around and say something once in awhile.
Happily Trapped In the Past (Thanks, Joe)
Not only a less than minimally educated person, but stupid and out of touch as well.
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I think it all burns if loaded correctly. If it doesn't burn then it will leave the barrel filthy. I think if you load a 9mm Parabellum with Retumbo you are going to get unburned powder but I think with reasonable cartridges, it all burns.
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Campfire Ranger
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Ken, � Could that extra powder, even though (or maybe especially because) it doesn't burn, serve to reduce the capacity of the case, thereby upping the pressure/speed? � That's pretty close to my best guess, but I haven't figured-out how to test it.
"Good enough" isn't.
Always take your responsibilities seriously but never yourself.
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Campfire Ranger
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I've just sent this e-mail to a dealer friend who's into such things. No reply yet. � how much would you have to have in paid-up-front preproduction commitment to make it worth your while to have somebody like Norma or Winchester run a batch of .220 Howell brass for you? About how much would you then have to charge per 100 cases? The interest in the cartridge is growing (see www.24hourcampfire.com, Hunter's Campfire chat forum, "A Family of Cartridges" thread), and the stuff that ***** ******* made for American Hunting Rifles is a felonious atrocity. One alternative, of course, would be a set of forming dies to convert good .25-06 brass.
"Good enough" isn't.
Always take your responsibilities seriously but never yourself.
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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I'm for re-forming, myself.
There's an old flea market "Orange Crusher" out back that could be put on air ( or hydraulic), and a small herd of other presses that could form a line and crank out fair volume.
Itr would be nice to run the chosen 25-06 through an annealling cycle on one of those carrousel rigs, prior to their molestation.
GTC
Member, Clan of the Border Rats
-- “Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on or by imbeciles who really mean it.”- Mark Twain
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I'm for re-forming, myself.
There's an old flea market "Orange Crusher" out back that could be put on air ( or hydraulic), and a small herd of other presses that could form a line and crank out fair volume.
It would be nice to run the chosen 25-06 through an annealing cycle on one of those carrousel rigs, prior to their molestation. There's no reason for narrowing the choice to either conversion or good ready-to-go new factory cases. Either one would be massively preferable to trying to make something worth while from the current junk.
"Good enough" isn't.
Always take your responsibilities seriously but never yourself.
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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Couldn't agree more, Se�or.
The propensity for Zink crystal precipitation in cartridge brass is a major player in that oft used term "Embrittlement".
I'd venture that Ternary and Quarternary Phase Equilibrium diagrams for the ideal cartridge brass alloy matrix is a little beyond the scope of this discussion (and certainly way out of my humble sphere of expertise).
It's one thing to cuss a lot of cartridge brass for dimensional disparities, quite another to run a mixed lot in which by the Mfgs. own admission contain "stronger case heads".
The bolded text is de-facto a condemnation of others in the lot being WEAKER.
One thing for sure, there's a open window for brass hardness and ductility issues to fly throuh and nest, when one's relying on weak process control in his annealing practice.
Time ever allows, I'm gonna' build a carrousel rig for that.
GTC
Member, Clan of the Border Rats
-- “Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on or by imbeciles who really mean it.”- Mark Twain
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Campfire Ranger
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� There's an old flea market "Orange Crusher" out back that could be put on air ( or hydraulic), and a small herd of other presses that could form a line and crank out fair volume. � I have, in near-pristine condition, a classic Dunbar, the best- built handloading press ever made. Always [deservedly] pricy, it never made it into wide-spread popular use and never became known to any but the most dedicated and quality-minded old-time handloaders. It's a very fine two-station H-frame press, just the ticket for a two-step set of forming dies to precede the regular loading dies in one or two additional presses. Herter's tried to copy it and made such a miserable parody of it that Dunbar gave a local guy a Dunbar for his Herter copy, just to put the cussed thing alongside a Dunbar in his display. The disparity in workmanship was that obvious, even to a casual on-looker. Pot metal it ain't. http://www.doering.cc/dunbar.html
"Good enough" isn't.
Always take your responsibilities seriously but never yourself.
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