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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Aug 2004
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It's not just the drugs, there are literally thousands if not hundreds of thousands of folks on these drugs. I believe it's a whole littany of things, changing the laws about commiting folks to the looney bin, destruction of the family through welfare, values, etc. It sure isn't Mayberry any more. The whole country has changed since the 50's to the point of non-recognition. That doesn't bode well for the outcome of the next few years.
Molɔ̀ːn Labé Skýla!
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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One more time. Anybody who thinks that "mentally ill" is a simple concept, and that it's easy to determine, and to control the crazies, including keeping guns away from them, needs to become educated about about DSM V, the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual used by psychiatrists and other health professionals.
Probably over 200 separate diagnostic categories, that could apply to many or even most people, at some time in their lives.
Paul
Stupidity has its way, while its cousin, evil, runs rampant.
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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I stand corrected. The NRA has revised their stance to support a mentally ill database http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...abase-thirty-eight-states-have-that-now/In the past they were adamantly against any checks for gun purchases.
Last edited by KFWA; 06/10/14.
have you paid your dues, can you moan the blues, can you bend them guitar strings
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Sep 2009
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There are less outlets for the psychopaths today. Throughout time man has been in a constant state of war/battle etc. It was no big deal to go into your neighboring country 200 years ago and rape, pillage etc. Good work for psychopaths and it kept them busy for centuries.
300 years ago, many of today's psychopaths were likely battlefield heroes Even true today, lots of special forces/leo types are indeed fully functioning psychos. Gunner The psych evaluation for SF is very rigorous, and it's ongoing. Maybe one gets through every now and then. Maybe one turns every now and then. But to say "lots of"; sorry, that's just BS. As for cops it's much the same. There are good cops and bad cops. There are very few whom have been proven to be psychopaths. There is psycho good and psycho bad GG, the folks I speak of are psycho good, I know this for first hand fact.  Gunner
Trump Won!
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Joined: Sep 2009
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Sep 2009
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It's not just the drugs, there are literally thousands if not hundreds of thousands of folks on these drugs. I believe it's a whole littany of things, changing the laws about commiting folks to the looney bin, destruction of the family through welfare, values, etc, but I see some of you already destroyed the argument about drugs as a stand-alone proposition... The family unit BIG, when all these little spoiled rotten self absorbed booger picking pukes that have been told how special and unique they are cant get their way and the WORLD doesnt bend around them, they snap. Gunner
Trump Won!
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Aug 2004
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I agree. You can get into the schematics of complicated diagnosis of mental illness all you want to... But in the end, the parents KNOW something isn't right and their little angel isn't quite the little angel they want to believe he is.
They may not be able to tag what is wrong with their kid with a physiatrist level diagnosis, but they know Jr. ought to be culled.
Molɔ̀ːn Labé Skýla!
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Joined: Jun 2002
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Campfire Sage
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Campfire Sage
Joined: Jun 2002
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I think you need to back it up at least one more step, because it looks like you're trying to do the EXACT same thing that the anti-gunners are trying to do; blame something other than the person. The common denominator is that they were mentally unstable people. There were mentally unstable people prior to the 1960s (when the prescription, by psychiatrists, of psychotropic medications started becoming routine in the general population), yet there was not even a small fraction the rate of these types of murders. That tends to eliminate mental instability at the cause, and tends to implicate psychotropic medications.
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Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
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Never mind all that, where ya been, �Hawkeye?
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Campfire Sage
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Campfire Sage
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When did all these mass shootings begin? About the same time these drugs came to market. People were crazy before then, but mass killings didn't happen. Thats right, and back in the day you were either committed to an institution and locked away or, the crazy/stupid/mean was beat outta you.  Gunner The type of folks who have been committing the sorts of murders we're mainly discussing would have remained under the radar of the psychiatric commitment authorities in the "golden age" of which you speak.
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
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These killings have been going on long before meds existed, and as to the current spate of them, like Jorge said, it's a stew of things that likely contribute.
As for the medications, one must consider this: There is a portion the schizophrenia, major depressive disorder, even add/adhd population who may harbor violent tendencies. Not necessarily BECAUSE of their disorder, but co-existing with it, for whatever reason. However, their disorder is sufficiently severe that in precludes good executive function - the ability to translate an abstract thought into discreet steps, and accomplishing them in an orderly, logical fashion, working towards a concrete answer/goal. They can't do it. There's too much noise in their thoughts, apathy, or susceptibility to distraction.
Now, take the same person and treat his/her mental illness, with good intentions all around. The medication works - the patient is overall more functional than they were. And what happens? That individual is sufficiently functional to carry out crime/murder.
The easiest example to appreciate is major depression and suicides. There are depressed persons too moribund with apathy and despair to carry out a suicide. Oh, they'd like to, they just can't get around to planning and doing it - they're too depressed. Give them some treatment. They will go through a phase in which they're "a little" better. Not feeling better about life, but they improved enough to actually get out of bed, eat a meal... and can plan out how to put a gun to their head.
Was it really the med that caused the violence? I'd say, no, in short, but it's complicated isn't it?
sandcritter md
Golldammed motion detector lights. A guy can’t even piss off his porch in peace any more.
"Look, I want to help the helpless. It's the clueless I don't give a [bleep] about." - Dennis Miller on obamacare.
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Campfire Sage
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Campfire Sage
Joined: Jun 2002
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There are less outlets for the psychopaths today. Throughout time man has been in a constant state of war/battle etc. It was no big deal to go into your neighboring country 200 years ago and rape, pillage etc. Good work for psychopaths and it kept them busy for centuries.
300 years ago, many of today's psychopaths were likely battlefield heroes Careful, now.
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Joined: Oct 2004
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Oct 2004
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I think you need to back it up at least one more step, because it looks like you're trying to do the EXACT same thing that the anti-gunners are trying to do; blame something other than the person. The common denominator is that they were mentally unstable people. There were mentally unstable people prior to the 1960s (when the prescription, by psychiatrists, of psychotropic medications started becoming routine in the general population), yet there was not even a small fraction the rate of these types of murders. That tends to eliminate mental instability at the cause, and tends to implicate psychotropic medications. I'll say it again, correlation does not equal causation...that's just bad science.
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Joined: Aug 2004
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 69,773 Likes: 41 |
These killings have been going on long before meds existed, and as to the current spate of them, like Jorge said, it's a stew of things that likely contribute.
As for the medications, one must consider this: There is a portion the schizophrenia, major depressive disorder, even add/adhd population who may harbor violent tendencies. Not necessarily BECAUSE of their disorder, but co-existing with it, for whatever reason. However, their disorder is sufficiently severe that in precludes good executive function - the ability to translate an abstract thought into discreet steps, and accomplishing them in an orderly, logical fashion, working towards a concrete answer/goal. They can't do it. There's too much noise in their thoughts, apathy, or susceptibility to distraction.
Now, take the same person and treat his/her mental illness, with good intentions all around. The medication works - the patient is overall more functional than they were. And what happens? That individual is sufficiently functional to carry out crime/murder.
The easiest example to appreciate is major depression and suicides. There are depressed persons too moribund with apathy and despair to carry out a suicide. Oh, they'd like to, they just can't get around to planning and doing it - they're too depressed. Give them some treatment. They will go through a phase in which they're "a little" better. Not feeling better about life, but they improved enough to actually get out of bed, eat a meal... and can plan out how to put a gun to their head.
Was it really the med that caused the violence? I'd say, no, in short, but it's complicated isn't it?
sandcritter md I agree with most of your post. It may be one reason that the shooters often self destruct at or before the moment authority figures get to them. They don't have the conviction, or the mental tools to be able to get past that point in most cases. It just pushes the "game over" button and they shoot themselves. How many times have we as gun owners wondered why the death counts were not higher out of these instances of mass killing? Perhaps that is because we think in the terms of what we know WE would be able to do. We don't think in terms of those that are barely functioning through all the "white noise" in the heads of those that do perpetrate these crimes.
Molɔ̀ːn Labé Skýla!
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Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 132,013 Likes: 61
Campfire Sage
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Campfire Sage
Joined: Jun 2002
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Never mind all that, where ya been, �Hawkeye? Busy.
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Joined: Jun 2002
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Campfire Sage
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Campfire Sage
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 132,013 Likes: 61 |
I think you need to back it up at least one more step, because it looks like you're trying to do the EXACT same thing that the anti-gunners are trying to do; blame something other than the person. The common denominator is that they were mentally unstable people. There were mentally unstable people prior to the 1960s (when the prescription, by psychiatrists, of psychotropic medications started becoming routine in the general population), yet there was not even a small fraction the rate of these types of murders. That tends to eliminate mental instability at the cause, and tends to implicate psychotropic medications. I'll say it again, correlation does not equal causation...that's just bad science. Correlation is sufficient reason to form a hypothesis as to causation and to begin testing it.
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Oct 2004
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[/quote]Correlation is sufficient reason to form a hypothesis as to causation and to begin testing it. That's damn near what I said on a previous post.
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Jul 2008
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It's not just the drugs, there are literally thousands if not hundreds of thousands of folks on these drugs. I believe it's a whole littany of things, changing the laws about commiting folks to the looney bin, destruction of the family through welfare, values, etc, but I see some of you already destroyed the argument about drugs as a stand-alone proposition... The family unit BIG, when all these little spoiled rotten self absorbed booger picking pukes that have been told how special and unique they are cant get their way and the WORLD doesnt bend around them, they snap. Gunner I think you're right, gunner, though these persons aren't ill in the same sense. Those are the potentially violent of the personality disordered - the anti-social, narcissists, and bordeliners of the world. Basically, the "sociopaths". And oddly enough, one can't fix these people with meds. At all (though people try for a variety of reasons). But some do respond somewhat to behavioral therapy - of which royal azz beatings until they change might work for some.
Golldammed motion detector lights. A guy can’t even piss off his porch in peace any more.
"Look, I want to help the helpless. It's the clueless I don't give a [bleep] about." - Dennis Miller on obamacare.
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 69,773 Likes: 41
Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 69,773 Likes: 41 |
I think a more comprehensive study of what we know about ALL factors that lead a person to commit these crimes is needed, and causative action approaches need to be implemented on all levels to prevent this for occurring as much as it does right now.
Another major cause is the publicity these events garner.
That publicity is a major stimulant to potential perpetrators. They seem to crave it. each one trying to outdo the last.
Molɔ̀ːn Labé Skýla!
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Joined: Jun 2002
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Campfire Sage
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Campfire Sage
Joined: Jun 2002
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Correlation is sufficient reason to form a hypothesis as to causation and to begin testing it. That's damn near what I said on a previous post. So show me where I said correlation equals causation.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Sep 2009
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Gunner
Trump Won!
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