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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 37,221 Likes: 9 |
There are thousands of collective years of experience here on the Fire. And opinions range from the minimalist to the big bore advocates (did I mention Gunner500?). If one did a bell curve of all opinions, the mean/median would probably be pretty close to optimal.
If I was going brown bear hunting (I never have) I would take my .375 H&H, SS Classic M-70 trimmed to 21" with Tupperware handle and Zeiss Victory 1.5-6. It's fast handling and not bad to shoot. That one may be somewhat to the right of the theoretical mean/median but, to me, seems about right.
Those hunts are too expensive to be experimenting with the least round that will work.
IMHO.
DF
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 60,209 Likes: 26 |
On the other hand is the experience many Alaskan guides, like Phil Shoemaker, who've almost never have problems with brown bear hunters who would be "undergunned" in the opinion of a lot of people who've never even seen a brown bear, much less hunted one. Most problems are with people who are overgunned, because they've come to believe due to Campfire threads that more gun than required is somehow better.
A few years ago I posted about how John Kingsley-Heath's favorite leopard round was the .243 Winchester, whether for himself or clients. JKH had a very long career as both a sport hunter and PH, and he and his clients killed LOTS of leopards. The reason for his preference were clearly stated in his book HUNTING THE DANGEROUS GAME OF AFRICA, one of the finest on the subject, and they were the usual: It had plenty of power for even a 200-pound leopard at the typical 50 yards or less, and could be shot precisely by just about anybody. Oh, and .243 bullets didn't do as much damage to the hide as bullets from bigger bores, instead doing their damage inside, where it counts. But a bunch of people, some of them PH's who haven't guided people to 1/4 of the leopards JKH did, and have NEVER seen one shot with a .243 because they discourage the use of such a small cartridge, made loud noises about how one of the most experiences and respected PH's of all time was FOS.
I also run into the same syndrome here in Montana, where the farther you live from elk country the bigger the rifle you need. And the justification is always the same: The travelling elk hunters think being over-gunned is far preferable to being under-gunned on such an expensive hunt. Well, the opposite is generally true, since as Phil pointed out something that matches my experience: The three biggest factors in "killing power" in order of importance are shot placement, penetration and bullet size--and placement is by far the most important. Which is exactly why one of my elk-outfitter friends carries a .375 H&H, "To finish the bulls my clients gut-shoot with their brand-new .338's."
And it's also why Phil would rather seen somebody show up with a 7mm Remington Magnum or .30-06 (or even a .270 Winchester) they can shoot than a .338 or .375 they can't. And it's why he's never had to follow up wounded bears shot by anybody using such "inadequate" cartridges.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 46,215 Likes: 13 |
.....the farther you live from elk country the bigger the rifle you need. Good one.
A wise man is frequently humbled.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 46,277 Likes: 2 |
I'm no professinal shooter/hunter, but for the life of me I cant understand how a hunter could mess up a shot on a bear, I would practice and do all imaginable under God to deliver a lethal hit, those sombitches can/will kill ya if you shoot em and piss em off.  I OWE it to the Guide as well as the bear NOT TO CAUSE ANY DAMN PROBLEMS.
Trump Won!
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Joined: Nov 2010
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 37,221 Likes: 9 |
I'm no professinal shooter/hunter, but for the life of me I cant understand how a hunter could mess up a shot on a bear, I would practice and do all imaginable under God to deliver a lethal hit, those sombitches can/will kill ya if you shoot em and piss em off. I OWE it to the Guide as well as the bear NOT TO CAUSE ANY DAMN PROBLEMS. And, I know you wouldn't show up with a .243 or a .270...  I think a guy who can really shoot a .375 would be an ideal client. Otherwise, maybe an '06 with good bullet choice would be just fine. I wouldn't take my .375 if I couldn't shoot it well (and I can)...  DF
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 17,491 |
I'm no professinal shooter/hunter, but for the life of me I cant understand how a hunter could mess up a shot on a bear
............  Because "lots of practice" involved two sessions and three boxes of ammo.....maybe. (Boy, that thing has a nasty kick to it!) Because getting up close - or even just seeing a real live moving bear- can set ones adrenal glands in motion..... Because those fuzzy walls of hair don't have the same handy distinctions or definition that one might be accustomed to finding for aiming aids on ungulates. Because it's more difficult to see the spot your guide told you to aim for since you can only see part of the animal at any give time in your scope. Because there's nothing to hold the damn mule-kicker  steady with on the pathetic, spongy excuse for terra firma which big bears seem to hang out upon. I am always amazed when I hear that one of my friends informs me that "so-and-so" whom he guided recently gave him a (insert a big-cased magnum chambered rifle here) as a tip. (I don't know anyone who has been given a 7Mag, 30-06, Whelen, or anything like that; it's always been a 375 or a Weatherby or Ultra-something. As recently as last fall one fellow I know well was even set up with a nice outfit for gunning........Taliban perhaps. ) Some people don't understand that it takes more than money to collect a bear trophy.
Sometimes, the air you 'let in'matters less than the air you 'let out'.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 37,221 Likes: 9 |
I'm no professinal shooter/hunter, but for the life of me I cant understand how a hunter could mess up a shot on a bear
............ Some people don't understand that it takes more than money to collect a bear trophy. Agree, but it does take a pile of money, too... DF
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 37,221 Likes: 9 |
I'm no professinal shooter/hunter, but for the life of me I cant understand how a hunter could mess up a shot on a bear
............ Because "lots of practice" involved two sessions and three boxes of ammo.....maybe. (Boy, that thing has a nasty kick to it!) How about a lifetime of hunting, reloading and shooting big guns? DF
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Aug 2003
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You might be surprised at the qualifications of some clients; the spectrum is vast and some people are very accustomed to seeing money make things happen at their directive.....
And, as has been mentioned more than once in previous posts, some rifles are "known" to be "on" because they were bore-sighted (by someone else) before the hunt......
(And of course there are many who have done their homework very well as well!)
Sometimes, the air you 'let in'matters less than the air you 'let out'.
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Joined: Apr 2005
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,983 Likes: 6 |
I'm no professinal shooter/hunter, but for the life of me I cant understand how a hunter could mess up a shot on a bear, I would practice and do all imaginable under God to deliver a lethal hit, those sombitches can/will kill ya if you shoot em and piss em off. I OWE it to the Guide as well as the bear NOT TO CAUSE ANY DAMN PROBLEMS. Put a proper bullet where It goes and they hit the ground. Even with a revolver. ![[Linked Image]](http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d62/jwp475/00000009.jpg)
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 37,221 Likes: 9 |
You might be surprised at the qualifications of some clients; the spectrum is vast and some people are very accustomed to seeing money make things happen at their directive.....
And, as has been mentioned more than once in previous posts, some rifles are "known" to be "on" because they were bore-sighted (by someone else) before the hunt......
(And of course there are many who have done their homework very well as well!) Can only imagine. I've seen similar at my deer camp. I try to help them with their rifles, sighting in, etc. It can get pretty pathetic, but I try to be patient and make the most of what I have to work with. Those are the ones, usually a member's guest, who end up crippling a fine trophy, which makes the member look bad, having brought the guy in the first place... Business is business and guides I've known put up with a lot more than I would... But, it's not my business, it's theirs... DF
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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.... guides I've known put up with a lot ...
That alone holds a lot of truth....
Sometimes, the air you 'let in'matters less than the air you 'let out'.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 35,900 |
On the other hand is the experience many Alaskan guides, like Phil Shoemaker, who've almost never have problems with brown bear hunters who would be "undergunned" in the opinion of a lot of people who've never even seen a brown bear, much less hunted one. Most problems are with people who are overgunned, because they've come to believe due to Campfire threads that more gun than required is somehow better.
A few years ago I posted about how John Kingsley-Heath's favorite leopard round was the .243 Winchester, whether for himself or clients. JKH had a very long career as both a sport hunter and PH, and he and his clients killed LOTS of leopards. The reason for his preference were clearly stated in his book HUNTING THE DANGEROUS GAME OF AFRICA, one of the finest on the subject, and they were the usual: It had plenty of power for even a 200-pound leopard at the typical 50 yards or less, and could be shot precisely by just about anybody. Oh, and .243 bullets didn't do as much damage to the hide as bullets from bigger bores, instead doing their damage inside, where it counts. But a bunch of people, some of them PH's who haven't guided people to 1/4 of the leopards JKH did, and have NEVER seen one shot with a .243 because they discourage the use of such a small cartridge, made loud noises about how one of the most experiences and respected PH's of all time was FOS.
I also run into the same syndrome here in Montana, where the farther you live from elk country the bigger the rifle you need. And the justification is always the same: The travelling elk hunters think being over-gunned is far preferable to being under-gunned on such an expensive hunt. Well, the opposite is generally true, since as Phil pointed out something that matches my experience: The three biggest factors in "killing power" in order of importance are shot placement, penetration and bullet size--and placement is by far the most important. Which is exactly why one of my elk-outfitter friends carries a .375 H&H, "To finish the bulls my clients gut-shoot with their brand-new .338's."
And it's also why Phil would rather seen somebody show up with a 7mm Remington Magnum or .30-06 (or even a .270 Winchester) they can shoot than a .338 or .375 they can't. And it's why he's never had to follow up wounded bears shot by anybody using such "inadequate" cartridges. John do you think that's why friends of mine have taken 270's to Africa instead of 338's and done really well with them? 
The 280 Remington is overbore.
The 7 Rem Mag is over bore.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 37,221 Likes: 9 |
Bob,
Not to steal John's thunder, but have you thought about the influence Ingwe may have had on the Safari scene?
DF
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 46,277 Likes: 2 |
DF, agreed, to me signing on to a hunt is like signing a contract to perform, fu-kups are non negotiable.
Klik, damn, thats a lot of reasons, like I said above to DF, failure is not an option for me.
Trump Won!
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Joined: Sep 2009
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 46,277 Likes: 2 |
I'm no professinal shooter/hunter, but for the life of me I cant understand how a hunter could mess up a shot on a bear, I would practice and do all imaginable under God to deliver a lethal hit, those sombitches can/will kill ya if you shoot em and piss em off. I OWE it to the Guide as well as the bear NOT TO CAUSE ANY DAMN PROBLEMS. Put a proper bullet where It goes and they hit the ground. Even with a revolver. Thats what I'm talkin bout right there JWP, nice shooting and nice bears and moose, also, if I had a set of nuts like Bob I'd even bring my 270. 
Trump Won!
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 35,900 |
gunner, Phil is the pro with the stones..he uses a 30/06... Believe me, there is no more hollow a feeling than when a hard hit brown bear gets into heavy cover and you know you let it happen....which I did. Things get very quiet very fast and there is this "Oh shidt now you've really done it" moment that follows.All the ballistic gack and excruciating nitpicking goes in the shidter at that point. Not that I shot badly because I was fearful of 375 recoil; I actually hit precisely where I wanted to, which was the wrong place.Shame on me. I know the feeling of a 375 shrinking to the power level of a 22 rim fire under those circumstances,and recoils about much. You barely remember the rifle going off
The 280 Remington is overbore.
The 7 Rem Mag is over bore.
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Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
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Posts: 1,140 |
I know I've read of people killing them with everything from a 22-250 to the 458 but there's one rifle I'd take for Kodiak or grizzly hunting for that matter, the 375 H&H.
Kids are for people that can't have dogs
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 5,828 |
Well this was interesting, I have a 338 Winchester Mag. one of the few rifles I kept when I downsized my collection some years back, I like the rifle and I shoot it fairly well. For most of us a Kodiak Brown Bear Hunt is going to be a guilded affair and a one time or maybe two time deal in a life time. What I know is this, shoot with what you shoot well after carrying the thing for 10 days or so. The Guild is going to have the "Big Rifle" so sort things out if need be. Gee's if a fellow like Phil suggests something, listen and do what he or any other outfitter tells you- its just plain commonsense . They know more on what the score is when it comes to this sort of thing. As for my 338 Winchester, I found that loading 200 gr Speer SP's to around 2400 fps makes a great load for shooting the local white tails while I day dream bout dangerous game and telling myself why are you carrying a 9 lb rifle around when you have a good 6.5 x 55 that tops out at llbs!
"Any idiot can face a crisis,it's the day-to-day living that wears you out."
Anton Chekhov
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Aug 2003
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DF,
Klik, damn, thats a lot of reasons, like I said above to DF, failure is not an option for me. That's just a way to poking fun at those who don't pay much attention to some of the sound advice they get here or from other reputable sources while reiterating some of the information people should know when/before they show up for a bear hunt. Seen and/or heard it all; it truly is amazing sometimes to see how cavalier a few folks can be about spending many thousands of dollars without thinking about being better prepared to meet the demands of their endeavor.
Sometimes, the air you 'let in'matters less than the air you 'let out'.
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