Home Forums Reloading Varmint Rifles 218 Bee bullets and Blue Dot?

Hi , I wonder if anyone has experience with the Bee and Blue Dot powder? Reason being that I have a quantity of Blue Dot and am looking for a clean burning powder that doesn't fill the case to the neck in order to get any kind of velocity. I tried 4227 got good results with 11 gr which is a starting load. Tried up to 12.5 of 4227 and got great accuracy again but very high pressures. Tried the "tack driver" load 14 gr. 4198 got superb accuracy but actually damaged the bullet trying to force the powder down with the bullet. Also I'd like to try either the Rem 45 gr. HP or the Win 46 gr. HP. Anyone have some experience with either bullet? I believe they both have a crimping cannelure.
Thanks for your help! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/help.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Take a look at the Calhoon Bullets web page. There are several articles about Blue Dot in small 22cfs. I have a great load for it in my 223 Mini Mauser.

Also, I shoot 46gr. Win. hps. in my CZ Hornet. I get 5 shot groups slightly under an in with them. Pete

Blue Dot is usable in the Bee (and the Hornet) but only as a .22Mag duplicator. It is too fast for full-power loads. I load 6.0 in the Hornet for about 2000 fps under a 45 semi-point. In the Bee, you can perhaps go up to 7.0 for about the same results with the same bullet. Go very slowly with charge increases; a tenth of a grain has noticeable effect in these tiny cases.

It's a good small game load with head shots, and a decent ground squirrel/PD load out to 125 yards or so but that's it.

For full power loads in the Bee, 4227, 2400 or LilGun are superb. See my article on the Bee at www.reloadingroom.com

Actually, the Blue Dot would make a nice "quiet" round. Wow, Rocky that article on the Bee is simply the best info on that cartridge! I would like to try AA1680 or Lil Gun with the 45/46 gr. bullet. Velocity wise, the Lil Gun has a significant edge, but accuracy wise the AA1680 seems to be excellent.Pete, thanks for the Calhoun bullet recommendation but I'm using the cartridge in a Marlin 1894 gun. I need a cannelured rounded point bullet so I can use the magazine.

Thanks, I'm honored.

Those are the best powders for full-power loads. It's a tossup which one your individual gun will like best - but both are great.

If you get a Lee Factory Crimp Die, you can use any bullet you like, with or without a cannelure. I am a huge fan of the Nosler Solid Base Hornet bullet. That little thing acts like a big game bullet. Bad 'yote and fox medicine; and it's blunt enough to dispell any magazine worries you might have.

I saw a comment somewhere that the Winchester 46 gr. and probably the Reminton 45 gr. hollow points don't have a cannelure. Can anyone verify this before I order some of these bullets? Rocky you mentioned that the Lee Facory Crimp die can be used with non cannelured bullets? I thought that there had to be a cannelure to crimp the neck into?

The standard seating die produces a "roll" crimp. That type of crimp does require a cannelure. Otherwise, the downward pressure of the crimping shoulder cannot "roll" the lip of the case inwards (no place for it to go) and the case shoulder will buckle instead.

The Lee crimper doesn't apply any downward force. It uses a collet to squeeze a crimp into the case lip. All the force is inward, and there's plenty there to indent the case into the bullet jacket.

I know what you just thought. No, that indent doesn't hurt accuracy. The bullet obturates when it hits the lands, effectively swelling the indent out again just a few thousandths of an inch after it leaves the case mouth.

It is my opinion that in very small cases like the Hornet and Bee, a firm crimp actually helps accuracy. Those case mouths are very thin and there isn't much bullet pull. Most primers are strong enough to unseat the bullet before the powder ignites. But because neck tension varies, no two bullets unseat alike or move the same amount. It's like having rounds with random OAL - no good comes of it. A firm crimp stabilizes the effective OAL, allows the powder to ignite consistently and releases the bulet the same way every time. Shoot some groups uncrimped and then Lee crimped. You may be pleasantly surprised.

Rocky - Do you think the Lee Collet would show noticeable "improvement" in .223 reduced, either accuracy or SD in reduced loads.

Doing some work-up with two guns (.223) with your Blue Dot info, and my old Unique loads, which are already "accurate", for comparison.

If you think I would "see" any difference, will try to work the "collet" comparison into the work-up. Should mention this is with jacketed bullets.

Ok, I'm definitely getting the Lee Factory Crimp Die! i was just on the Midway site and really took a look at the pictures of both the Hornady and Speer bullets. The Hornady has the cannelure way forward towards the HP while Speer has the cannelure towards the base. No wonder I'm having trouble seating the Hornady 46 gr. bullet over 14 grs. of 4198! Don't really like Speer bullets but at least they put the cannelure where it belongs.

Remseven, I'm not sure it would have an effect at all, but it never hurts to know for sure! Reloading is nothing BUT experimentation, after all.

XLT, I think the different cannelure positions have to do more with overall length (and the size of some magazines) than anything else. The designer puts the cannelure in a specific spot to work best with a specific cartridge. That's very obvious with bullets meant for the .30-30. Bullets designed for that round usually have the bullet base right at the neck junction when crimped into the cannelure. It's not a coincidence.

Hmm, on a hunch I checked the overall length of a Win. Factory cartridge vs. a reload with the Hornady Bee bullet. The max. OL for this cartridge is 1.680". The Win factory is 1.662" and the reload is 1.616". I've had feeding problems with the reloads and now I see why! The cannelure on the Hornady bullet is definitely almost .050 too high on the bullet. The only way I can use the last box of 100 is to seat them out and use the Lee Factory crimp die. Or sell the box on ebay! Earlier in this thread Pete in Idaho mentioned the Calhoon bullets and I went to their site. Wow, some serious varmint bullets! I wonder if the tip of the Double Hollow Point is flat enough for use in a tube magazine?

Why do you feel you have to crimp your 218 Bee cartridges?
Are you concerned the bullets will push back in the case neck?
If its about accuracy the same would hold true in a bolt gun and I'll bet the majorty who load for the 22Hornet don't crimp.
The Bee should work the same. I personally feel crimping is for the birds. Pete

Pete, read the whole thread. I explain my reasons for crimpimg up above. A whole lot of sceptics have been converted to crimpers after just a few test groups from their Bee or Hornet.

XLT, there really isn't enough recoil to cause problems with "in-tube" firing in the Marlin Bee. I wouldn't start loading FMJ bullets in it, but practically any softpoint or hollowpoint will be fine. (And they don't line up with the bullet perfectly centered on the next primer, anyway) Recent tests show that it takes a very sharp bullet, hevay recoil and a strong magazine spring to get even one round in a magazine to go off. And even THEN, there's just a pop, a whoosh of poorly burning powder and that's it. No KABOOM because nothing is confined.

In short, I wouldn't sweat it.

I guess they really don't go down the tube straight. They have to be cocked because of the spring pressure. But even if they did there isn't the slightest chance that the virtually non-existant recoil could ever set anything off! I've always known that it was a good idea in deer cartriges to avoid pointed bullets, but I agree that really doesn't apply here. Wow, that opens up a whole new spectrum of bullets. I really appreciate all the advice. Thanks!

Rocky,

Without trying to sound like a wise guy and with all due respect the odds are heaviely in favor of the way I see things.
I think you said it your self "In my view", that 's all it is - in your view. It's your opinion and not the majoritys. If it was such an improvement more people would be crimping. That's all there is to it. Pete

No problem, Pete. I had the same view as you - until I tried it.

Opinions are among the easiest things to change, but only from the inside. Outside pressure just hardens 'em.

Pete in Idaho - The crimp Rocky is using is a whole different approach than roll or shoulder crimp. It might just be worth a shot to try. Don't know if you knew this or not.

Suspect he is on to something with the thin necks issue he mentioned. I aim to check out with .223 when time. I've heard about as much plus as minus here with the Lee crimp die.

I've had the die on the shelf for about a year, just to stuck on the KISS method to give it a whirl yet. Suspect it might be more of a help with the reduced .223 loads if a thin-neck issue as in the Bee and Hornet, but as Rocky said, try it and find out.

My Bee likes 13.0 of 4227 and 11.5 of 296. I've been using the 35gr Vmax by Hornady with these loads. Very accurate in my old Win. 43. Never thought of Blue Dot HMMMMMMMM....

There is less of an effect with the .223, remseven. Those have pretty substantial necks, and the bullet pull is therefore MUCH more consistent. Also, the case volume is just large enough that the primer has less of a chance moving the bullet prematurely.

So far, the only cartridges I've found where the primer/neck tension situation arises are the Hornet and the Bee. I'm beginning to suspect the Fireball might sometimes show signs of this, but it seldom suffers from thin neck brass. No larger case suffers at all, as far as I know now.

What I will probably attempt is to check Stan. Dev. with/with out crimp on a known ACCURATE load, then average if a % difference in the SD, and accuracy REMAINS within perimeter of known result. If noticeable effect observed, should be something definite going for sure with thinner cartridge necks.

If anything looks interesting, narrow it down from, there, if not, probably definitely an affect in thinner case necks showing with those, (left this off, an edit, didn't want to confuse) - those meaning the Bee & Hornet cases.