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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 3,168
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Jan 2004
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My vote is for an AR pistol. Same ammo. Same magazines. Seriously, why not?
Give them a single point sling so they can hang it under their arm or off their LBE.
Seriously you would want them to carry an M4 and then another AR pistol? Why not just shoot them with the M4?
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Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 1,792
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Aug 2006
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Not for riflemen, just for people who don't have a rifle. Same concept as the M1 carbine or the grease gun.
Conrad101st
1/503 Inf., 2nd ID (90-91)
3/327 Inf., 101st ABN (91-92)
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 18,312 Likes: 1
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 18,312 Likes: 1 |
yup, every time I take a POS Glock apart I realize it probably costs about 50 cents to make them, but a Glock 17 or 19 is a shootin machine. I have tried every 10mm, and 45ACP they make and just don't like them. The 40's are good but snappy and I would not shoot reloads in them.
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Joined: May 2005
Posts: 16,554
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 16,554 |
Seriously you would want them to carry an M4 and then another AR pistol? Why not just shoot them with the M4? That leads to an interesting point, with that little M4 available what would (should) the military expect of a pistol for general issue anyway? Personally I wouldn't want to bring a pistol to an assault weapon fight. Firepower, accuracy, body armor, weak cover and all that sort of stuff.
The key elements in human thinking are not numbers but labels of fuzzy sets. -- L. Zadeh
Which explains a lot.
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 10,282
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 10,282 |
45acp, but not a 1911. Glock or S+W M+P. I know the Glock will stand the trials, even though I prefer the S+W myself.
The older I become the more I am convinced that the voice of honor in a man's heart is the voice of GOD.
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 57,487
Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 57,487 |
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^Because, it was the Army that said so, and it was the Carter era, and that was that. So they were repairable then.
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 57,487
Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 57,487 |
Personally, I think the .357 Sig round would be the optimum caliber for Military use. Better Penatration and bigger round capacity, or the ability to carry more rounds in the handgun platform. But those in charge of securing Military Contracts are not known for IQ or common sense. So we can pretty much rule out them going to a handgun in .357 Sig.
Here's what I posted on the other thread on the same subject :
The Military will buy the cheapest POS with the lowest bid, just like they did with the M9. They won't buy Sigs because they are too expensive. They won't buy 1911's because they are too expensive.
It will come down to either the S&W M&P or the Glock, IMO.
It would be nice if they went with a an American MFG, for a change.
Personally, I'd prefer the Ruger SR9 or SR45 over any M&P or better yet, a Ruger 1911, in .45 acp, of course. I think Ruger should still pay for Bill's anti gun stance in the 90s... and not get the contract, but then again, a US gun vs a foreign one, maybe I can forget the 90s.
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
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Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 11,268
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 11,268 |
All this was studied from 1898 to 1908. Improvments: Truncated FMJ bullets to meet all the rules. Bump up to +P loads. The sidearm is not a battle weapon. Simple as that.
Gun Shows are almost as comical as boat ramps in the Spring.
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Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 42,816 Likes: 1
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 42,816 Likes: 1 |
I never understood why the 1911 was replace in the first place and the 45 ACP was shelved in favor of the 9mm since NATO countries were using it... the 45 worked well for its intended purpose.. it was reliable and well designed...
another 25 year social experiment by Washington that failed...
I have a 1927 built 45 ACP/1911... I wouldn't trade it for 5 Glocks of the caliber of my choice....this thing is built like a 53 Buick... lot of metal and tough....and the capability of any 45 ACP round needs no explanation unless someone doesn't know squat about a pistol round...
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Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 18,170
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Oct 2008
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A pistol is an intermediate weapon who's only purpose is to allow you to fight long enough to acquire a rifle.
TRUMP- GABBARD 2024
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Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 12,806
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Mar 2004
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They want low recoil for women troops and/or non-experienced males, penetration of body armor (although maybe not the solid plate armor which even a rifle won't penetrate), high capacity magazines, etc. Lightweight ammo wouldn't hurt either.
I'll make a broad statement and say that for the USA, the 20th Century belonged to the .45 ACP - an auto pistol version of the "big, slow and heavy" .45 Colt. Perhaps in the 21st Century it might be time to look at the 5.7x28. Uh huh. What do you think the stopping power is like when you can put a 3 round burst into a BG's eyeball at 25 yards?
Islam is a terrorist organization.
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 57,487
Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 57,487 |
with the amount of training and in combat situations, even if the gun is one hole group capable, putting a round or 3 in the head or eye is not in reach for about any of the shooters.
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
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Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 12,806
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 12,806 |
OK, I'll admit it wasn't a handgun, but a full-auto PS90 with a dot on it takes very little training.
I'd bet I could get 1/2 of a class of girls to hit a golf ball at 25 yards with it within 8 hrs of training.
Islam is a terrorist organization.
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Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 13,860
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 13,860 |
My vote is for an AR pistol. Same ammo. Same magazines. Seriously, why not?
Give them a single point sling so they can hang it under their arm or off their LBE.
A lot of units do have 10.5in uppers, great for mounted stuff. That is still no substitute for a handgun.
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Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 14,370
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 14,370 |
OK, I'll admit it wasn't a handgun, but a full-auto PS90 with a dot on it takes very little training.
I'd bet I could get 1/2 of a class of girls to hit a golf ball at 25 yards with it within 8 hrs of training. That pistol just makes too much sense... ETA: I was referring to the FN five seven..
Last edited by Middlefork_Miner; 07/04/14.
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Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 3,344
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 3,344 |
Personally, I think the .357 Sig round would be the optimum caliber for Military use. Better Penatration and bigger round capacity, or the ability to carry more rounds in the handgun platform. But those in charge of securing Military Contracts are not known for IQ or common sense. So we can pretty much rule out them going to a handgun in .357 Sig.
Here's what I posted on the other thread on the same subject :
The Military will buy the cheapest POS with the lowest bid, just like they did with the M9. They won't buy Sigs because they are too expensive. They won't buy 1911's because they are too expensive.
It will come down to either the S&W M&P or the Glock, IMO.
It would be nice if they went with a an American MFG, for a change.
Personally, I'd prefer the Ruger SR9 or SR45 over any M&P or better yet, a Ruger 1911, in .45 acp, of course. I've always wondered why the 357sig didn't catch on mo better than it did. I have very little interest in hand-guns but that 357sig sure looked like it was the sweet spot for hi-cap plastic guns.
Done in Convention by the Unanimous Consent of the States present the Seventeenth Day of September in the Year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and Eighty seven.
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Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 34,261
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 34,261 |
My vote is for an AR pistol. Same ammo. Same magazines. Seriously, why not?
Give them a single point sling so they can hang it under their arm or off their LBE.
Now that makes a lot of sense based on the types of fighting done today.
Don't vote knothead, it only encourages them. Anonymous
"Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups." Anonymous
"Self-reliance, free thinking, and wealth is anathema to both the power of the State and the Church." Derby Dude
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Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 34,261
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 34,261 |
Not for riflemen, just for people who don't have a rifle. Same concept as the M1 carbine or the grease gun. That idea is not as crazy as it sounds. I did a quick search and there are a number of companies with models already out there. Sig, KelTec, Rock Island, etc.
Don't vote knothead, it only encourages them. Anonymous
"Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups." Anonymous
"Self-reliance, free thinking, and wealth is anathema to both the power of the State and the Church." Derby Dude
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Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 34,261
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 34,261 |
Seriously you would want them to carry an M4 and then another AR pistol? Why not just shoot them with the M4? That leads to an interesting point, with that little M4 available what would (should) the military expect of a pistol for general issue anyway? Personally I wouldn't want to bring a pistol to an assault weapon fight. Firepower, accuracy, body armor, weak cover and all that sort of stuff. That's an interesting point. I guess in the back of my mind I've been thinking that myself. It would seem any pistol today would have to use armor piercing ammo to be effective.
Don't vote knothead, it only encourages them. Anonymous
"Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups." Anonymous
"Self-reliance, free thinking, and wealth is anathema to both the power of the State and the Church." Derby Dude
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Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 34,261
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 34,261 |
A pistol is an intermediate weapon who's only purpose is to allow you to fight long enough to acquire a rifle. There's a lot of truth in that statement. if one looks at all the WWII pictures of fighting airborne generals that jumped with the troops they all carry either M-1 Garands or 03 Springfields. In fact, General Ridgeway saved himself from capture because he was carry an M-1 with armor piercing ammo. He was out taking a wiz when he was attacked by a German tank trying to capture him alive. He figured what the hell and shot the tank driver through the tank. The tank went out of control and he escaped. Imagine if all he had was a 1911.
Don't vote knothead, it only encourages them. Anonymous
"Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups." Anonymous
"Self-reliance, free thinking, and wealth is anathema to both the power of the State and the Church." Derby Dude
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