Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunter's Campfire Army wants a harder hitting handgun

My Dad and Uncles carried ruskie and german weaponry in nam-bodia, wore enemy clothing, and got orders from Men called Westy and Plaster.

I know that MACV-SOG packed a variety of weapons. No 2 ways about it those guys were straight up warriors in every sense of the word.
I met a few guys that served in MACV-SOG when I was at Ft Bragg. Even got to meet and BS with a few that did the Son Tay raid.

Some insight:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1986_FBI_Miami_shootout#Weaponry_and_injuries

I know for a fact, because I had a friend that was in the US Marshall's Service that was involved in testing of handgun rounds shortly after this shootout occurred that all of the various rounds used by the FBI in this incident, including the pistol round that was adopted WOULD NOT penetrate the slanted windshield of a same model Monte Carlo used by the perps. The ONLY ROUND that DID penetrate was the .45 230 gr. hardball!

Why am I not surprised??

I can't remember where I've learned this: officers of foreign, especially Nazi, armies, carried handguns to kill their own soldiers. The US Army adopted the 1911A1 in .45 ACP as a battle weapon to kill soldiers of opposing armies.

Hence, a foreign military officer didn't need a battle weapon to shoot one of his soldiers in the nape of his neck.

It's a no brainer. Get back to the M1911A1 in .45 ACP.

Body armor is and will be more prevalent.

Therefore this....FN 5.7

High caps and easy to shoot.

How many 14-16hr days have you spent in full kit, IE body armor/plates combat load out? Choosing not to reduce an operator's kit by 20 ounces, in a fit of "nostalgia", is straight up stupid. Army SF has already answered this question for themselves, they chose the Glock.

I seen a few dozen automobile windshields shot with 9mm, from inside the vehicle and from the outside. I've never seen GI 9mm ball NOT penetrate, ever.

And how exactly is this relevant?

In the first place, the FBI agents at the Miami gunfight did not at any time attempt to shoot through the windshield of any of the cars involved. Their shot opportunities were through the open driver's window of the Monte Carlo, or at Platt as he exited the vehicle (during which he took the lethal hit from Dove's 9mm) or as he moved around the vehicles.

In the second place, if we're discussing current ammunition for current weapons such as a new military sidearm, the ammo offerings in 1986 are irrelevant. I've been present for T&E of many modern service caliber rounds, and aside from the .380, just about any 9mm, 357 SIG, or 40 S&W service round will reliably penetrate angled windshield glass and perform to FBI specs in gelatin thereafter.

But them bullets do some crazy, counter-intuitive stuff, don't they?

If you are referring to the way they refract, it's pretty straightforward physics and you can train for it. If you're shooting outside at a target inside, your bullets will hit above your point of aim by a few inches, so you aim low. Vice versa from inside. Training, not intuition.

I've used 3 different handguns in the military. 1911's when I joined, Beretta M9 a bit later and finally the a Sig P229 in 40 the last 8-10 years.

Loved the 1911, Hated the M9 and was ambivalent about the Sig.

Roger that. If a dude is six feet or so in from you and draws down on you, aim for his pelvis (The more angled the windshield is the more dramatic this effect is. So, a Jeep windshield won't cause this marked shift of impact)
The first round, maybe the second, will hit him in the sternum, most likely. Once you poke a hole the bullets will fly true. So, if you are shooting at a moving target and breaking glass each shoot, you've gotta aim low.

Keep digging, the Panther came AFTER the Tiger and there is NO WAY, NO WAY an 06 AP round will penetrate even a PKW III even. Your "proven facts" are legion around here. lol. BTW, ever look up Pinochet and Franco? feel free to apologize when you do...

Look friend, perhaps you are clueless as to what an "opinion" and "YMMV" means. But then I don't have the time or the patience to educate you, so in light of that I will just leave you with this. GFY!

So, I guess that means none.

Issue PFC Susie a 1911 with a full magazine � and a 36-inch lanyard firmly attached so that she can swing it 'round 'n' 'round while she's shrieking.

How many hours have you spent riding a ship through heavy seas, running simulated small boat attacks on combat vessels, standing watch on a ship at sea, working in the oilfield, spending hours on end in full dress out during GQ drills?

See I can ask questions too. The question is pointless when you frame it to where you and a select few are the only ones that can answer it. That does not mean that someone cannot have an opinion on a general matter, of which this is.

Please point out to me where the SF, or wannabe's, are the only one's being considered in this article.

I've logged a bit of RB-15/Zodiac time in my day. Most of it I'll admit was lobstering, snorkeling, and wake-boarding (takes real talent behind a 35hp rubber boat).

Army SF, unlike the rest of the Army, has the means and the money to buy whatever pistol they want. Unlike the Marines/MARSOC, they chose not to waste a huge sum of money on a dinosaur. That point is apparently lost on you and many others here.

Well that is where our opinions differ. I don't consider the 45 ACP a dinosaur. Not arguing specifically for the 1911 platform, as if you go back and read what I posted I mentioned the SIG P220 several times. Pretty sure those SIGs have a touch of time in the field as well.

Appreciate you are loyal to a GLOCK, and for SF that is well and good. But for average everyday dumbazzes they are getting in now, it is my opinion a striker fired weapon is not a good idea.

The Glock probably isn't the best solution for big Army. Some sort of striker-fired pistol is the best option, IMO. Maybe something yet to come.

Bill Rodgers has watched tons of brass hit the ground at his range over the last 30yr. He says Glocks and now S&W M&P's are the best thing going. The XD's and the Sigs are more reliable than a 1911 but fall far short of the two plastic guns. Don't discount the Sig 250, it may be the dark horse here, and it is truly MODULAR.