|
|
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 1,450
Campfire Regular
|
OP
Campfire Regular
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 1,450 |
Well. Obama would tather we shoot marshmallows and rainbows at them Holy schit that is funny
I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them.
-Thomas Jefferson
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 13,860
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 13,860 |
No way it will be a 1911, even though it's a better choice than the M9. My bet will be either the HK45, or the P227. Much as we all like the 1911, it's going to be hard for any military officer to walk up to a Congresscritter or bureaucrat and say, we want a 103 year old design  even if they say it's "reimagined" or whatever  The USMC went back to the .45 ACP in a 1911 platform a couple of years ago: http://www.gunsandammo.com/2012/07/20/colt-awarded-contract-from-u-s-marine-corps/ Sort of, three battalions (MARSOC) of the USMC went back to the 1911, and like I've already posted, the Quantico built 1911's the Colts replaced left a really bad impression and not all of them are impressed. It'll be a cold day in hell before the USMC drops that kind of coin for a handgun for fleet marines. MARSOC can because they belong to SOCOM
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 12,664
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 12,664 |
The master gunsmiths at Lackland made the AF target 1911s. I've seen and handled one and IMO no custom shop has ever come close to the workmanship!!!
The Karma bus always has an empty seat when it comes around.- High Brass
There's battle lines being drawn
Nobody's right if everybody's wrong
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,967 Likes: 5
Campfire 'Bwana
|
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,967 Likes: 5 |
No way it will be a 1911, even though it's a better choice than the M9. My bet will be either the HK45, or the P227. Much as we all like the 1911, it's going to be hard for any military officer to walk up to a Congresscritter or bureaucrat and say, we want a 103 year old design even if they say it's "reimagined" or whatever The USMC went back to the .45 ACP in a 1911 platform a couple of years ago: http://www.gunsandammo.com/2012/07/20/colt-awarded-contract-from-u-s-marine-corps/ Sort of, three battalions (MARSOC) of the USMC went back to the 1911, and like I've already posted, the Quantico built 1911's the Colts replaced left a really bad impression and not all of them are impressed. It'll be a cold day in hell before the USMC drops that kind of coin for a handgun for fleet marines. MARSOC can because they belong to SOCOM I believe the Colts do not have to meet the same accuracy requirements. Therefore they are less accurate, which to me means less well fit.
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 96,121 Likes: 1
Campfire Oracle
|
|
Campfire Oracle
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 96,121 Likes: 1 |
if you are limited to ball ammo which the military is YES the 9mm is not a very good choice. I do think the m9 wasn't that great a choice but it was in a time when semi auto handguns where really transititioning to modern design. when the m9 came out what else was really out there. glock was barely out there and everything else wasn't that reliable or was a revolver, or was a single stack rounds limited 1911.
Thanks for playing, try again.
"Dear Lord, save me from Your followers"
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 15,905 Likes: 12
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 15,905 Likes: 12 |
A side arm is such a waste of space in combat.
Tell that to the guys who have been wounded and unable to shoulder their rifles, yet survived by using their sidearm. Same thing with the guys who have used their pistols from inside vehicles..
THE CHAIR IS AGAINST THE WALL. The Tikka T3 in .308 Winchester is the Glock 19 of the rifle world. The website is up and running!www.lostriverammocompany.com
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,967 Likes: 5
Campfire 'Bwana
|
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,967 Likes: 5 |
A side arm is such a waste of space in combat.
Tell that to the guys who have been wounded and unable to shoulder their rifles, yet survived by using their sidearm. Same thing with the guys who have used their pistols from inside vehicles.. Pistols are invaluable in my eerie nice and I always want one.
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 7,115 Likes: 3
Campfire Tracker
|
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 7,115 Likes: 3 |
lets not forget there are substantial downsides to the 1911 and 45 acp. take your 1911 bias out of it. the fact is the 1911 is a heavy gun that is very much rounds limited. if I am going to war its going to be something double stack and polymer framed. If I am limited to ball ammo I would probably compromise and run a 40 and it would be a glock. If I could run hollow points 9mm would be just fine for me again glock. I will be saving about a 1# in weight and able to fire double the rounds.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,967 Likes: 5
Campfire 'Bwana
|
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,967 Likes: 5 |
You forgetting about the double stack 1911s I see. They can be completely taken apart including the grips removed as long as slotted screws are used without any tools other than parts from the pistol itself. The down side is they are expensive to produce when fitted properly.
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424 Likes: 13
Campfire Sage
|
|
Campfire Sage
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424 Likes: 13 |
I'm surprised to read how many people think the .40 is a happy medium in the shootability department.
I know it is subjective but I find the 230gr hardball stuff a helluva lot more shooter friendly than the full house 40's. Especially when you get below 180gr bullets.
Travis
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual. Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit. My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424 Likes: 13
Campfire Sage
|
|
Campfire Sage
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424 Likes: 13 |
Looks like history is repeating itself. I seriously doubt we'll be leaving the 9x19 behind since it's the NATO round. We'd make a lot of our fellow members pretty upset. Of course, they're probably pretty upset with us right now so what's the difference right. I've qualified several times on the M9 and I could take it or leave it. The M11 on the other hand is fantastic. I like it a lot more than the M9. It'd be nice just to switch over to that.
As for another caliber, I don't know where you all are seeing .40 S&Ws break apart and destroy frames and stuff. There are .40s out there with tens of thousands or rounds through them. I've owned several .40 cal plastic fantastics and the recoil is more than manageable. It sounds to me like lots of the old stereotypes are still being played. And the thought that a Glock, M&P or other plastic pistol would have trouble in combat is a little silly. Plastic pistols have been doing a great job in combat for 20+ years. I haven�t shot a Glock enough to wear it out, but I hope to. We�ll see.
All that said, just like the search for a new carbine, this probably won�t go far and Uncle Sam will end up sticking with the 9x19 and renegotiating a new contract with Beretta. But maybe I�m just cynical.
Oh, and one other thing. In reading the Fox article it sounds like a lot of the problems with multiple shots mentioned by that expert come down to training issues. Shot placement is huge. But I imagine that�s easier said than done when bullets care coming back in your direction.
The 40 is hell on frames. 180's going 1,000-1050 seem to be less hell on frames. Travis
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual. Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit. My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 2,965
Campfire Regular
|
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 2,965 |
The master gunsmiths at Lackland made the AF target 1911s. I've seen and handled one and IMO no custom shop has ever come close to the workmanship!!! Some knowledgable people would agree to that in its day
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 21,700 Likes: 3
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 21,700 Likes: 3 |
I'm surprised to read how many people think the .40 is a happy medium in the shootability department.
I know it is subjective but I find the 230gr hardball stuff a helluva lot more shooter friendly than the full house 40's. Especially when you get below 180gr bullets.
Travis Your experience with the 40 and 45 mirror my own. The 155 grain Gold Dots we were issued were flippy little bastids.
"The number one problem with America is, a whole lot of people need shot, and nobody is shooting them."
-Master Chief Hershel Davis
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 15,905 Likes: 12
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 15,905 Likes: 12 |
Mine too.
My double taps and controlled pairs are much tighter with a .45 or 9mm over the .40. After having trained one or two shooters in the last couple decades, I have yet to see one who shot a .40 best..
THE CHAIR IS AGAINST THE WALL. The Tikka T3 in .308 Winchester is the Glock 19 of the rifle world. The website is up and running!www.lostriverammocompany.com
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 5,749
Campfire Tracker
|
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 5,749 |
Mine too.
My double taps and controlled pairs are much tighter with a .45 or 9mm over the .40. After having trained one or two shooters in the last couple decades, I have yet to see one who shot a .40 best.. And I thought I was the only one. "It's better to hit with a BB, than to miss with a cannon." And 230's ain't BB's. FC
"Every day is a holiday, and every meal is a banquet."
- Mrs. FC
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,613
Campfire Regular
|
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,613 |
A side arm is such a waste of space in combat.
Tell that to the guys who have been wounded and unable to shoulder their rifles, yet survived by using their sidearm. Same thing with the guys who have used their pistols from inside vehicles.. "During the recovery, Gunnery Sergeant Blanton courageously transitioned from his rifle to his pistol and began engaging insurgents located in close proximity to his position." (Read rifle jam) http://projects.militarytimes.com/citations-medals-awards/recipient.php?recipientid=3729]LINK[/url]
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,613
Campfire Regular
|
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,613 |
Link Sorry, above is link.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 17,101
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 17,101 |
Looks like history is repeating itself. I seriously doubt we'll be leaving the 9x19 behind since it's the NATO round. We'd make a lot of our fellow members pretty upset. Of course, they're probably pretty upset with us right now so what's the difference right. I've qualified several times on the M9 and I could take it or leave it. The M11 on the other hand is fantastic. I like it a lot more than the M9. It'd be nice just to switch over to that.
As for another caliber, I don't know where you all are seeing .40 S&Ws break apart and destroy frames and stuff. There are .40s out there with tens of thousands or rounds through them. I've owned several .40 cal plastic fantastics and the recoil is more than manageable. It sounds to me like lots of the old stereotypes are still being played. And the thought that a Glock, M&P or other plastic pistol would have trouble in combat is a little silly. Plastic pistols have been doing a great job in combat for 20+ years. I haven�t shot a Glock enough to wear it out, but I hope to. We�ll see.
All that said, just like the search for a new carbine, this probably won�t go far and Uncle Sam will end up sticking with the 9x19 and renegotiating a new contract with Beretta. But maybe I�m just cynical.
Oh, and one other thing. In reading the Fox article it sounds like a lot of the problems with multiple shots mentioned by that expert come down to training issues. Shot placement is huge. But I imagine that�s easier said than done when bullets care coming back in your direction.
The 40 is hell on frames. 180's going 1,000-1050 seem to be less hell on frames. Travis Do you think platform can be attributed to that?
The government plans these shootings by targeting kids from kindergarten that the government thinks they can control with drugs until the appropriate time--DerbyDude
Whatever. Tell the oompa loompa's hey for me. [/quote]. LtPPowell
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,967 Likes: 5
Campfire 'Bwana
|
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,967 Likes: 5 |
Another http://projects.militarytimes.com/citations-medals-awards/recipient.php?recipientid=1001Medal of Honor Awarded for actions during the United Nations Operations in Somalia II The President of the United States of America, in the name of Congress, takes pride in presenting the Medal of Honor (Posthumously) to Master Sergeant Gary Ivan Gordon, United States Army, for gallantry and intrepidity at the risk of life above and beyond the call of duty, on 3 October 1993, while serving as Sniper Team Leader, United States Army Special Operations Command with Task Force Ranger in Mogadishu, Somalia, in support of Operation RSTORE HOPE. On that date, Master Sergeant Gordon's sniper team provided precision fires from the lead helicopter during an assault and at two helicopter crash sites, while subjected to intense automatic weapons and rocket propelled grenade fires. When Master Sergeant Gordon learned that ground forces were not immediately available to secure the second crash site, he and another sniper unhesitatingly volunteered to be inserted to protect the four critically wounded personnel, despite being well aware of the growing number of enemy personnel closing in on the site. After his third request to be inserted, Master Sergeant Gordon received permission to perform his volunteer mission. When debris and enemy ground fires at the site caused them to abort the first attempt, Master Sergeant Gordon was inserted one hundred meters south of the crash site. Equipped with only his sniper rifle and a pistol, Master Sergeant Gordon and his fellow sniper, while under intense small arms fire from the enemy, fought their way through a dense maze of shanties and shacks to reach the critically injured crew members. Master Sergeant Gordon immediately pulled the pilot and the other crew members from the aircraft, establishing a perimeter which placed him and his fellow sniper in the most vulnerable position. Master Sergeant Gordon used his long range rifle and side arm to kill an undetermined number of attackers until he depleted his ammunition. Master Sergeant Gordon then went back to the wreckage, recovering some of the crew's weapons and ammunition. Despite the fact that he was critically low on ammunition, he provided some of it to the dazed pilot and then radioed for help. Master Sergeant Gordon continued to travel the perimeter, protecting the downed crew. After his team member was fatally wounded and his own rifle ammunition exhausted, Master Sergeant Gordon returned to the wreckage, recovering a rifle with the last five rounds of ammunition and gave it to the pilot with the words, "good luck." Then, armed only with his pistol, Master Sergeant Gordon continued to fight until he was fatally wounded. His actions saved the pilot's life. Master Sergeant Gordon's extraordinary heroism and devotion to duty were in keeping with the highest standards of military service and reflect great credit upon, his unit and the United States Army.
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 2,965
Campfire Regular
|
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 2,965 |
In the movie "Black Hawk Down" the actors sidearms were 1911's. Does anyone know what handgun he and the other sniper were actually using?
Last edited by idahoguy101; 07/08/14.
|
|
|
|
|
506 members (1beaver_shooter, 1badf350, 1minute, 1lessdog, 06hunter59, 52 invisible),
2,257
guests, and
1,240
robots. |
|
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
|
Forums81
Topics1,193,283
Posts18,505,153
Members73,998
| |
Most Online11,491
Jul 7th, 2023
|
|
|
|
