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Originally Posted by AussieGunWriter
Originally Posted by idahoguy101
Originally Posted by AussieGunWriter
A .270 Winchester using premium bullets makes a superb hunting rifle but I could never own another after using a .30/06.


Would you kindly explain that? Is it personal preference?


One off wonder shots don't prove much over time. We have all had those.




And I think we could add: "One off FAILURE shots don't prove much over time. We have all had those", as well.

Not much is proved in either case as to the suitability, or lack thereof, of a particular cartridge or bullet!

Physics is still a definitive reality apart from personal attachment or emotion over a particular cartridge - caliber.

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Originally Posted by ingwe
Just like JB always says, men can't kill big game with light rifles, but women and children can��..


Finally a title I can live with wink

I've always been a little sceered to use such a light rifle for hunting wink wink wink consequently I had to have my 10-year-old try it first. (If you think that means I'm going to try it second, think again.) grin (I still haven't.)



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Ross Seyfried came to the same conclusion some years ago in his article, "Busting the Magnum Myth".

Here's a link: http://www.gunsamerica.com/blog/ross-seyfried-busting-the-magnum-myth/


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Ross certainly had some fine things to say about the .300 H & H..


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Ross made his living as a writer and if you happened to read his articles over the years you saw many contradictions as he also wrote glowing things about various magnum rifles and seemed particularly fond of the 340 Wby.

Don Heath, "Ganyana", on the other hand not only reports on his extensive experience, but also addresses documented experiences of many others.


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Originally Posted by AussieGunWriter
Originally Posted by idahoguy101
Originally Posted by AussieGunWriter
A .270 Winchester using premium bullets makes a superb hunting rifle but I could never own another after using a .30/06.


Would you kindly explain that? Is it personal preference?


I used to cull a lot, read that as thousands of animals, particularly when reviewing rifles where my habit was to develop loads at the range and then take the rifle to the bush.

In a great many side by side tests you don;t see a terrible lot of difference between various cartridges, particularly on deer sized feral animals but one trip in particular stood out in my memory and that was when I was clearing the shelves of old handloads and factory ammo that had been provided for review.

Some factory loads are several hundred fps below handloading capability and on this particular trip I noticed that the .30/05 killed very uniformly which was gaged by the % of animals stopped in their tracks either dead or incapacitated and unable to move further.

Some of the loads were pathetic such as 150gn loads at around 2600fps MV in the '06 but still worked as well as the .270 with warmer loads. I put that down to a caliber advantage as being more demonstrable than the velocity aspect when directed similarly.

Obviously bullet choices make a difference but I am averaging out results which I think is a more independent way of assessing differences. One off wonder shots don't prove much over time. We have all had those.

I used the .270 a lot since the 70's and never used the .30/06 until the late 80's as I was firmly in the Magnum Mania Phase, still am, with some cartridges.

My current .30/06 is fast dying with the barrel shot out. It has taken an awful lot of animals and developed a lot of handloads but it will be re-barreled with another .30/06 tube I have on hand in the not so distant future.



No issues friend... I use both cartridges. I was curious what your negative 270 experience was.

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Originally Posted by 458Win
Ross made his living as a writer and if you happened to read his articles over the years you saw many contradictions as he also wrote glowing things about various magnum rifles and seemed particularly fond of the 340 Wby.

Don Heath, "Ganyana", on the other hand not only reports on his extensive experience, but also addresses documented experiences of many others.


Ross Seyrfried changed his mind about the necessity of big cartridges on Elk ... Whether it was an epiphany or not we don't know.

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I will say this, I don't think that well-heeled sportsmen hunting in Africa are necessarily a good representation of the typical American hunter. Maybe it is just a regional thing but virtually every hunter I know practices for a 300-400 yd shot and expects to have to take one. You can usually get closer but for someone to blatantly state that it is unethical to shoot beyond 350 yards turns me off. Maybe shooting elephants and buffalo beyond 350 yards is unethical but where do we draw the line? Is it unethical to shoot an unwounded woodchuck at 500 yards? Maybe African game is afforded higher life status than American game.

I don't doubt that many shooters show up over gunned and under practiced however.


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Originally Posted by siskiyous6
It is funny how number 1 is so written in stone, and the next two use weasel words like "I contend" and "ethical" and "Too Many"

Well I contend the ethical limit is 378 yards, and just enough clients show up under gunned and over practiced.

So what does he recommend for people who want to afford to practice and therefore want a round that works with cup and core bullets? Because I contend the cost of premium bullets is a huge factor in the lack of practice.

I read his stuff before and it is really second rate.



Good point. With the variety of bullets available in any, at least somewhat common caliber, any half capable handloader can stretch a cartridge both up and down the spectrum of game size. I shoot small game with specialty loads in a .350RM. Several here shoot deer with specialty loads in .223R. Is a cartridge really an ideal choice for the game if it can only perform well with a specialty load?

I guess that I don't consider a cartridge ideal for a given game unless the guy that doesn't handload can go buy a standard grade box of factory ammo in the right bullet weight and have it be a reliable and humane round with which to take the game. The plus for the handloader is that these 'ideal' cartridges work well with plain and cheap Hornady and Speer bullets.

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Originally Posted by idahoguy101
Originally Posted by AussieGunWriter
Originally Posted by idahoguy101
Originally Posted by AussieGunWriter
A .270 Winchester using premium bullets makes a superb hunting rifle but I could never own another after using a .30/06.


Would you kindly explain that? Is it personal preference?


I used to cull a lot, read that as thousands of animals, particularly when reviewing rifles where my habit was to develop loads at the range and then take the rifle to the bush.

In a great many side by side tests you don;t see a terrible lot of difference between various cartridges, particularly on deer sized feral animals but one trip in particular stood out in my memory and that was when I was clearing the shelves of old handloads and factory ammo that had been provided for review.

Some factory loads are several hundred fps below handloading capability and on this particular trip I noticed that the .30/05 killed very uniformly which was gaged by the % of animals stopped in their tracks either dead or incapacitated and unable to move further.

Some of the loads were pathetic such as 150gn loads at around 2600fps MV in the '06 but still worked as well as the .270 with warmer loads. I put that down to a caliber advantage as being more demonstrable than the velocity aspect when directed similarly.

Obviously bullet choices make a difference but I am averaging out results which I think is a more independent way of assessing differences. One off wonder shots don't prove much over time. We have all had those.

I used the .270 a lot since the 70's and never used the .30/06 until the late 80's as I was firmly in the Magnum Mania Phase, still am, with some cartridges.

My current .30/06 is fast dying with the barrel shot out. It has taken an awful lot of animals and developed a lot of handloads but it will be re-barreled with another .30/06 tube I have on hand in the not so distant future.



No issues friend... I use both cartridges. I was curious what your negative 270 experience was.


Oh, there was no offense taken. I thought you were genuinely interested, so I put a little more in the response. Hope it helps outline the way I think on these things.
John


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Originally Posted by Rovering
Originally Posted by siskiyous6
It is funny how number 1 is so written in stone, and the next two use weasel words like "I contend" and "ethical" and "Too Many"

Well I contend the ethical limit is 378 yards, and just enough clients show up under gunned and over practiced.

So what does he recommend for people who want to afford to practice and therefore want a round that works with cup and core bullets? Because I contend the cost of premium bullets is a huge factor in the lack of practice.

I read his stuff before and it is really second rate.



Good point. With the variety of bullets available in any, at least somewhat common caliber, any half capable handloader can stretch a cartridge both up and down the spectrum of game size. I shoot small game with specialty loads in a .350RM. Several here shoot deer with specialty loads in .223R. Is a cartridge really an ideal choice for the game if it can only perform well with a specialty load?

I guess that I don't consider a cartridge ideal for a given game unless the guy that doesn't handload can go buy a standard grade box of factory ammo in the right bullet weight and have it be a reliable and humane round with which to take the game. The plus for the handloader is that these 'ideal' cartridges work well with plain and cheap Hornady and Speer bullets.


That is a great way to look at it, standard ammo, not premium ammo, is the real word way to judge a cartridge.


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Originally Posted by RinB
This just appeared in the latest SUCCESSFUL HUNTER. Written by a very well respected and experienced African PH. Finally, someone willing to state the obvious.

1. "Modern premium bullets make the 270 Winchester into the all-around plains game cartridge."

2. "If something is more than 350 yards away, I contend no one has any ethical business shooting unless the game is wounded."

3. Too many clients are arriving overgunned and under practiced.


Truer words were never said,especially number 2 and 3.


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Originally Posted by siskiyous6
Originally Posted by Rovering
Originally Posted by siskiyous6
It is funny how number 1 is so written in stone, and the next two use weasel words like "I contend" and "ethical" and "Too Many"

Well I contend the ethical limit is 378 yards, and just enough clients show up under gunned and over practiced.

So what does he recommend for people who want to afford to practice and therefore want a round that works with cup and core bullets? Because I contend the cost of premium bullets is a huge factor in the lack of practice.

I read his stuff before and it is really second rate.



Good point. With the variety of bullets available in any, at least somewhat common caliber, any half capable handloader can stretch a cartridge both up and down the spectrum of game size. I shoot small game with specialty loads in a .350RM. Several here shoot deer with specialty loads in .223R. Is a cartridge really an ideal choice for the game if it can only perform well with a specialty load?

I guess that I don't consider a cartridge ideal for a given game unless the guy that doesn't handload can go buy a standard grade box of factory ammo in the right bullet weight and have it be a reliable and humane round with which to take the game. The plus for the handloader is that these 'ideal' cartridges work well with plain and cheap Hornady and Speer bullets.


That is a great way to look at it, standard ammo, not premium ammo, is the real word way to judge a cartridge.


Why is that? confused

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There was a popular writer who, a few years ago, stated that the M16/AR type rifle was not much of a hunting rifle as far as he was concerned. He was vilified, crucified, and lost his way of making a living. He was accused of being anti-gun.

I doubt if any single professional writer, who is also a hunter, will ever criticize the "long-range hunting" thing, for fear of a vocal minority backlash. The interest in long range shooting is driving profit margins for the entire rifle shooting industry. The statistics show that there are very few new "hunters" but many new "shooters". The new shooters, who account for over 80% of new buyers, are gearing up for long-range and are buying AR's along with iPhones. Both are potent consumer symbols.

I am all for this new interest in shooting. A marketing manager for a large company recently told me that few of those shooters will ever hunt. They go out and shoot at things a long ways away. This tactical long range stuff is the source of big profit margins and growth, along with the AR's.

However, I am with Mr. Heath. Long range shooting at game is not hunting. Baseball and golf are great games because of the rules not despite them.

Last edited by RinB; 07/09/14.


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Originally Posted by BobinNH
Originally Posted by siskiyous6
Originally Posted by Rovering
Originally Posted by siskiyous6
It is funny how number 1 is so written in stone, and the next two use weasel words like "I contend" and "ethical" and "Too Many"

Well I contend the ethical limit is 378 yards, and just enough clients show up under gunned and over practiced.

So what does he recommend for people who want to afford to practice and therefore want a round that works with cup and core bullets? Because I contend the cost of premium bullets is a huge factor in the lack of practice.

I read his stuff before and it is really second rate.



Good point. With the variety of bullets available in any, at least somewhat common caliber, any half capable handloader can stretch a cartridge both up and down the spectrum of game size. I shoot small game with specialty loads in a .350RM. Several here shoot deer with specialty loads in .223R. Is a cartridge really an ideal choice for the game if it can only perform well with a specialty load?

I guess that I don't consider a cartridge ideal for a given game unless the guy that doesn't handload can go buy a standard grade box of factory ammo in the right bullet weight and have it be a reliable and humane round with which to take the game. The plus for the handloader is that these 'ideal' cartridges work well with plain and cheap Hornady and Speer bullets.


That is a great way to look at it, standard ammo, not premium ammo, is the real word way to judge a cartridge.


Why is that? confused


That is a great question.

And when in the world did my ability to practice with "standard ammo" become dependant on what cartridge I am shooting?

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Originally Posted by RinB
There was a popular writer who, a few years ago, stated that the M16/AR type rifle was not much of a hunting rifle as far as he was concerned. He was vilified, crucified, and lost his way of making a living. He was accused of being anti-gun.

I doubt if any single professional writer, who is also a hunter, will ever criticize the "long-range hunting" thing, for fear of a vocal minority backlash. The interest in long range shooting is driving profit margins for the entire rifle shooting industry. The statistics show that there are very few new "hunters" but many new "shooters". The new shooters, who account for over 80% of new buyers, are gearing up for long-range and are buying AR's along with iPhones. Both are potent consumer symbols.

I am all for this new interest in shooting. A marketing manager for a large company recently told me that few of those shooters will ever hunt. They go out and shoot at things a long ways away. This tactical long range stuff is the source of big profit margins and growth, along with the AR's.

However, I am with Mr. Heath. Long range shooting at game is not hunting. Baseball and golf are great games because of the rules not despite them.


Well said Rick. Now I assume there will be someone along shortly to say something like "just because you can't" or some such nonsense.

I have shot a few head of game at distances past 350 yds. All with modest scopes and sported weight rifles. And all under ideal circumstances. One stands out though and it taught me a valuable lesson. It was a self guided Bighorn that I could not get closer than 430 yds to. I set up a bench rest type arrangement on flat ground with a pack and had made that shot numerous times at inanimate objects before. But when the moment of truth arrived and I tripped the trigger he moved (more like lunged). I saw him move but it was too late. I hit him too far back and it was a bit of a rodeo before I finished the job. All of the practice in the world could not correct that type of a scenario.


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Originally Posted by dennisinaz
I will say this, I don't think that well-heeled sportsmen hunting in Africa are necessarily a good representation of the typical American hunter. Maybe it is just a regional thing but virtually every hunter I know practices for a 300-400 yd shot and expects to have to take one. You can usually get closer but for someone to blatantly state that it is unethical to shoot beyond 350 yards turns me off. Maybe shooting elephants and buffalo beyond 350 yards is unethical but where do we draw the line? Is it unethical to shoot an unwounded woodchuck at 500 yards? Maybe African game is afforded higher life status than American game.

I don't doubt that many shooters show up over gunned and under practiced however.


I don't know a damned thing about anything in Africa.

But in the mountains of west or central Idaho, a working man had better be prepared to take a 400 yd shot, or else be content with a freezer which spends many years void of game.

If you push that 150 gr Partition to 2900 fps from the 270, it is down to 2150 fps at 400 yds. Similar to a 30-30 at 50 yds. Sure, it will kill an elk.

But I consider it valuable insurance that my STW is still pushing a 160 to 2600 fps at 400 yds.


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You are correct, velocity makes bullets work...if those bullets are properly placed.

I live in south Idaho so know what you mean. However, if it was just for meat most hunters would likely be better off selling their pickup, 4 wheeler, tent trailer, horses...and go to a farmer and buy half a beef.



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