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^^^ This.
I don't think that three shots is going to statistically give a reliable indicator of where subsequent shots are going to go. I've shot groups that had two in one hole and one a little out or a great three shot group followed by a not so great next group or two great three shot groups but with a slightly different point of impact. The epiphany came when I stacked the targets, aligning the POI and holding up to the light to see how things ironed out. Guess what� Those fliers aren't fliers at all but rather part of the group.
Nowadays I want at least 10 shots so it will give me a somewhat meaningful indicator of where my next shot is likely to go. I know barrel heat can have an effect, so I don't normally just rattle off 10 shots, but, barrel weight dependent, break down the ten shot group, letting the barrel cool between each sub-group. For light barrels, I'll do a 3 shot group, let the barrel cool and shoot another at the same target, same point of aim, repeat as necessary until I have a ten shot group. Heck, you could let the barrel cool after every shot if you wanted, the point being to put enough shots in the group so you have a reasonable indicator of where the next one will go.
If folks will do this, they will see fliers aren't fliers and can't be discounted and slightly different point of impact between the three shot groups they are used to shooting ain't always due to conditions, but rather part of the normal dispersion that rifle will shoot with that load.
Gonna be a lot of naysayers about this method� All I can say is that folks oughta just try it before passing judgement�.
John Yep. Basically ... if you just keep shooting at the same spot, you're eventually going to get a clear picture of the pattern that your rifle throws with a particular load. You'll know you've got it nailed, when you shoot a tiny 3 shot group ... and the following shots keep going in the tiny group.
Uber Demanding Rifle Aficionado
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I like to take my first 3 shot groups of a few 'range sessions' to determine the rifle's accuracy. Not only group size but point of impact also. After the first few shots a barrel will not cool down to where it was when you started the session (unless you put the rifle aside for long periods of time) which would be similar to hunting conditions. Funny when we compare how we feel when we leave the range after your rifle grouped really well vs when a rifle grouped really poor. Best feeling ever vs why do I always get the bad ones and on top of that a little confusion just to make it even worse  Pieter
Last edited by m77; 07/18/14.
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Hondo64d hit it on the head.
Last edited by whitebread; 07/18/14.
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In a pure hunting rifle, all I care about is what it will do the first two or three shots every time, day after day. Me too. Five different 3 shot groups over a period of several range trips tell me just as much three groups of 5 shots. +1 I guess what needs to be asked is what are you trying to discover when shooting groups? I recently started load work up for a new gun. I shot 3 shot groups. I knew some of them were going to be bad regardless until I was in the sweet spot. Why shoot five? I did shoot a 5/8" three shot group. I am going back out tonight to confirm that group was legit. If it fires tight like that again, I will go out to 200+ and retest. Some people claim you need 5, then why not 10, 15 or 20? I don't own any real heavy barreled guns, so if I want to shoot 5 shot groups I would be standing around pulling dick waiting for my gun to cool down when it is 90 degrees.
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I did shoot a 5/8" three shot group. I am going back out tonight to confirm that group was legit. If it fires tight like that again, I will go out to 200+ and retest.
Do you overlay the groups to confirm POI? Thats where some miss the boat.
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Depends upon what the rifle is to be used for. Prairie dog and smaller targets might benefit from ten shot groups. For rifles intended for antelope and deer on up, I'm more interested in where the first shot from a cold barrel goes.
If time and range constraints fit, I would fire one shot on the same target on several different days to see how close they shoot. This is usually not convenient, so I go with a three shot group. Everything seems to work out OK.
My go to rifle usually prints the first two touching off the bench, with the third usually about a half inch up. I can't shoot that well off my feet anyway, so that is plenty good.
Jack
"Do not blame Caesar, blame the people...who have...rejoiced in their loss of freedom....Blame the people who hail him when he speaks of the 'new, wonderful, good, society'...to mean ,..living fatly at the expense of the industrious." Cicero
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Some good advice here. For me it depends on how much experience I have with that particular rifle. If it is an old favorite that I know is accurate, even 1 or 2 shots may be fine and we are good to go. If it is a rifle that you are still learning and tweaking, several groups may be called for to establish it's capabilities.
In real world hunting situations, you probably are not going to have a 4th and 5th shot that are going to be from a benchrest so in a hunting rifle those shots are only going to give an idea of the consistency of your rifle.
I am continually astounded at how quickly people make up their minds on little evidence or none at all.
Jack O'Connor
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In a pure hunting rifle, all I care about is what it will do the first two or three shots every time, day after day. Especially where the first (cold bore) shot is going to go every time. If we do out job it should be the only shot. Understandably things happen and I have taken a follow up on occasion but IMHO unless it is come strange circumstance the first shot should take care of business. twofish
*Master of random precision*
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I can pretty much assure you guys that my 5-round group is more about my mental/physical fatigue than the rifle. It already has a bedded action with free floated barrel. But, it is good to know the reasons behind the "why". I always keep my old targets, so I'll put them together and make an overlay of several past 3-shot groups. This rifle technically hasn't even been broke in yet, with less than 50rds down the pipe.
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John, let us know how the overlay looks. Plot the bullet holes on one of the targets and take pics if you can. Fun stuff!
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Every shot is an individual event. It takes no more effort to shoot 4,5, or 10 rounds than it does 3.
I rifle that has a "cold bore deviation" needs mechanical work. You do not need to let a barrel "cool" between rounds. Yes, firing round after round and scorching the throat will shorten barrel life, but groups don't enlarge because the barrel heats up. Shooting 5 and 10 rounds groups will not burn the barrel out, but it will show you what the gun truly is capable of.
The reality is that people shoot 3 round groups because they desperately need to tell themselves that their gun is _______ accurate "all day long", when they really know that it isn't.
A rifle is only as accurate as the target that it will consistently hit. If it's a .5MOA rifle at 100 yards then it will put every round fired into a half inch dot at 100 yards. If you can't take your "sub MOA all day long" rifle and keep every round fired on a sub MOA target, then it should be evident that it's not a sub MOA gun.
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Really the first shot is about all that count on a hunting rifle. Shot #2 usually won't be at a standing broadside animal. We all tend to fuss a lot about groups but in most hunting situations at deer size game in the field. The dif in 1/4 inch 5 shot group or a 2 inch group on a bench will never cause a miss at reasonable ranges.
If you play the long range game it's a different story..
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Groups lie. Once you've settled on "the one" load, shoot a cluster, waiting to let barrels cool, but all at the same spot. Very humbling, especially when not repeatable weeks apart (when your work was "done".)
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A rifle is only as accurate as the target that it will consistently hit. If it's a .5MOA rifle at 100 yards then it will put every round fired into a half inch dot at 100 yards. If you can't take your "sub MOA all day long" rifle and keep every round fired on a sub MOA target, then it should be evident that it's not a sub MOA gun. One of the most quote worthy things ever posted on the the 'fire. Might have to use that in my signature� John
If my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and I will forgive their sin and will heal their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14
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I've posted for over a decade how I was so privileged to have been raised in the 60s/70s is a "serious" hunting family. To come up in central Idaho in that time, plus hunt all over the US and Canada, plus 4 trips to Africa before I graduated high school had a value I can't calculate in today's world.
What I would offer to this is that my Dad, now 78, for the 50+ years I've known him makes a habit of each day when going down to get the mail (just under 2 miles from the house) whether back in the day on a 1950s cub cadet, to today a John Deere Gator, along the way fires religiously at originally license plates, and now license plate sized pieces of sheared siding, on pasture fence posts at up to 300 yards. He fires 10 shots, double taps, as quickly as he can work the bolt, each day. I can promise you don't want him shooting at you, and his groups are nowhere near .5 inch like the internet groups I read about, but are ALL on the 6x9 plates... and, he has well over 100 B&C/SCI critters in his game room. Just school for thought... (and over half with a 270 Win...who'd a thunk it? Jack?)
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Most people can't shoot a .5 MOA group of 5 or 10 if they were given a proven bench rifle to shoot.
Its very hard to hold consistently shot to shot and takes more practice and discipline that the average "hunter" will do.
When I go to the range I am there a minimum of 5-6 hours handloading, chronographing and shooting groups. I see some expensive rigs get uncased and put away after a dozen shots and then another new face or more arrives for the next hour.
I put a lot of time into setting up my rifles with bedding, free floating, triggers, mounts, lapping and tossing bad scopes in the garbage.
Again it's hard to shoot good groups and even harder to shoot them time and time again week after week. If it was easy, the same "best shooter" would win the events week after week with more consistency.
Self discipline is the ultimate discipline.
When truth is ignored, it does not change an untruth from remaining a lie.
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A rifle is only as accurate as the target that it will consistently hit. If it's a .5MOA rifle at 100 yards then it will put every round fired into a half inch dot at 100 yards. If you can't take your "sub MOA all day long" rifle and keep every round fired on a sub MOA target, then it should be evident that it's not a sub MOA gun. One of the most quote worthy things ever posted on the the 'fire. Might have to use that in my signature� John I'm glad to see someone agreeing with formidilosus. A lot of guys have shot his way of thinking down many times before. He's right as far as I'm concerned. The groups posted way off in left field are sometimes ridiculous, I don't care how small they are. POA and POI are 2 very crucial elements to the whole equation of shooting. I mean hitting 
I try to stick with the basics, they do so well. Nothing fancy mind you, just plain jane will get it done with style. You want to see an animal drop right now? Shoot him in the ear hole. BSA MAGA
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I shot 5, 3 shot groups today. As they were all somewhat offset from the aiming point I couldn't figure out the actual middle of the group as far as aiming point goes. Tomorrow I'm going to shoot 4 shot groups, draw a line from each hole to all holes to get the center. That way I will know how far from the center of the groups each shot hits and hence how far from an aiming point. I know you can do this w/5-10-20 shots, but why?
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Most people can't shoot a .5 MOA group of 5 or 10 if they were given a proven bench rifle to shoot.
Its very hard to hold consistently shot to shot and takes more practice and discipline that the average "hunter" will do.
When I go to the range I am there a minimum of 5-6 hours handloading, chronographing and shooting groups. I see some expensive rigs get uncased and put away after a dozen shots and then another new face or more arrives for the next hour.
I put a lot of time into setting up my rifles with bedding, free floating, triggers, mounts, lapping and tossing bad scopes in the garbage.
Again it's hard to shoot good groups and even harder to shoot them time and time again week after week. If it was easy, the same "best shooter" would win the events week after week with more consistency.
Self discipline is the ultimate discipline. And I'll be the first to admit most of my rifles are far more accurate than I am capable of shooting. This to me is more relevant that Formidilus' post. But his ideas are pretty spot on as well, when it concerns more professional/competitive shooting.
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Muddy, shooting numerous three shot groups is fine if you are shooting them on top of each other forming one combined group. I don't understand what you mean when you say "I couldn't figure out the actual middle of the group as far as aiming point goes". Essentially what you should be doing is shooting the groups on top of one another. Don't change out the target, shoot the same target with the same aiming point for each group, forming a combined group. If you do switch targets, overlay the targets with the aiming points aligned and plot all of your bullet holes on one target.
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