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The development of the Theory of Evolution began with observation, not a conclusion. I don't think you read enough of the opinions of the proponents. In your case you start with evolution and then defend it by using evolution.
"Only Christ is the fullness of God's revelation."
Everyday Hunter
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CCCC,
"I believe that our God is omniscient and omnipotent"
Do you believe that God can smite someone who displeases him? If you don't believe God would smite someone who displeases him is it ok if he gets one of his believers to smite them? A yes or no answer is ok, please don't quote Bible scripture. I am not answering in terms of "displease", for what it might take to displease God to such an extent, and what His reason might be for smiting, are beyond my full comprehension. But - do I "believe that God can smite someone"? Yes, I believe that He can. He is omnipotent. "Is it OK if He gets one of His beleivers to smite them"? I am not equipped to pass judgement on what might be "OK" for God to do in achieving His purposes. He knows that - He is omniscient. With regard to your request, rarely, if ever, do I quote Scripture verses/passages in these discussions. If a discussant is knowledgeable of the Scripture, there seems no need to quote. If the discussant is not knowledgeable of Scripture, such a quote is not likely to be useful or effective due to contextual matters - and disinterest. CCCC, Thanks for responding to my questions. Do you think God would be displeased if a adult male pervert kidnaps, rapes and murders a young innocent prepubescent girl? Assuming God would be displeased by this act do you think God should smite the pervert before he commits this horrible act. Please don't say that God gave man free will and therefore God isn't responsible for stopping the pervert. Isn't God all powerful and loves children? victoro, once again, I consider myself a poor judge of how God sees the individual behavior of persons, and what God should do about those acts. You ask me to not say that "God gave man free will" and so one must wonder why you don't wish to hear/read that truth. Some of mankind commits really bad acts every day/hour/minute/second - which certainly seems to confirm the existence of such free will. On the other hand, we do not know of situations, possibly multitudinous, in which God sees fit to prevent bad actions. That said, I feel that the crime you describe is a horrific act and know that I likely would be harsh in rendering punishment. But, no matter how much my reaction might align with what God would choose to do, any punishment I might render would in no way be Godly. Life is characterized by choices, particularly about our behavior, and Christianity is characterized by even more and greater choices. Such is the exercise of free will. Christians are blessed with a Guide Book.
Last edited by CCCC; 07/30/14.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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The development of the Theory of Evolution began with observation, not a conclusion. I don't think you read enough of the opinions of the proponents. In your case you start with evolution and then defend it by using evolution. Who brought up evolution in this thread?? It wasn't me.
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
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How many of what, and at what time of day were present at the opening of Jesus tomb? I asked you for a dozen I think. You mentioned one. The one you chose to claim as a contradiction is accepted as real history by no less a scholar than Simon Greenleaf. Where are the other eleven?
"Only Christ is the fullness of God's revelation."
Everyday Hunter
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Who brought up evolution in this thread?? There is so much going on on this forum, I have no idea most of the time who posted what. So I don't know.
"Only Christ is the fullness of God's revelation."
Everyday Hunter
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There's about a dozen contradictions in my one example.
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Who brought up evolution in this thread?? There is so much going on on this forum, I have no idea most of the time who posted what. So I don't know. That would be you.
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
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Campfire Ranger
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There's about a dozen contradictions in my one example.
Should the seious student reject Simon Greenlief because you say there are "about a dozen contradictions in my one example."? Maybe I should ask for twenty. Could we get past this one with that many?
"Only Christ is the fullness of God's revelation."
Everyday Hunter
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I don't need 20. You know my example is rife with contradictions, that's why you are asking for others.
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Again DIVINE revelation refers to revelation by legends and mythologies. If one accepts natural observation as DIVINE revelation then one might as well throw the Bible in the trash heap. Are you ready to do that? If so welcome aboard as a Deist. I don't know how anyone who has studied Christianity could be so wrong. You show me you don't understand Christianity or its sources. I have never met a Christian who believes divine revelation comes through legends. That is exactly why the apocryphal gospels are spurious. Yes, Christians see divine revelation in nature. And Christians see divine revelation in the scriptures. But Christians see the supreme divine revelation in the person of Christ. According to your flawed thinking, if we accept that God reveals himself through nature, then not only could we throw the Bible on the trash heap, we could also discard Christ. No can do. Only Christ is the fullness of God's revelation. Steve. You have just discovered the difference between a Deist and a Theist. The Holy Book of Legends and Mythologies has REVEALED to Christians God's Word and that a dead human Jew named Jesus is DIVINE. Deists reject the the Holy Book of Legends and Mythologies and the Divinity of a dead human Jew named Jesus. Some Deists may look at Jesus as a Jewish rabbi with a pretty good moral code such as Thomas Jefferson, but that's it. Many Deists back in the day, 18th century, believed that if they followed the Jesus's moral code they could call themselves Christians. Hence, the reason I said I believed one could possible be a Christian Deist at least back in the day. I don't know of any Deist who would call themselves a Christian Deist today but there maybe be some that do. I know some who call themselves a Christian Witch so who knows. Deists use human reason rather than DIVINE revelation for a religion and the study of nature rather than DIVINE revelation for theology.
Last edited by derby_dude; 07/31/14.
Don't vote knothead, it only encourages them. Anonymous
"Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups." Anonymous
"Self-reliance, free thinking, and wealth is anathema to both the power of the State and the Church." Derby Dude
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Back to the OP.
Contrary to the typical Atheist, you will never see or hear me criticize another for his/her faith. I have great respect for those who hold their faith dear and honor it.
I am sometimes envious. It would be nice, at times, to believe there was someone out there who could solve all of my, or even the world's problems.
But alas, I can not, without evidence. And we all know evidence is completely contrary to faith.
The only time the word evidence is used in the New Testament, is in reference to faith. Faith is both substantial and evidenciary. See below. Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
"Keep thy heart with all diligence; for out of it are the issues of life." (Prov 4:23)
Brother Keith
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I don't need 20. You know my example is rife with contradictions, that's why you are asking for others. RM's response is beyond a ham-handed attempt to avoid answering the question.
Carpe' Scrotum
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I don't need 20. You know my example is rife with contradictions, that's why you are asking for others.
I don't know that. I'm asking for other to see if you have anything to stand on.
"Only Christ is the fullness of God's revelation."
Everyday Hunter
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The development of the Theory of Evolution began with observation, not a conclusion. I don't think you read enough of the opinions of the proponents. In your case you start with evolution and then defend it by using evolution. Who brought up evolution in this thread?? It wasn't me. Who would believe that? Maybe you had better go back over your posts - you also said that you never mentioned "sides" or "contests/opponents". One who never lies does not have to worry about being caught in one.
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By definition, your hpothesis means that all thought is determined by electro-chemical processes; material processes of cause and effect, if you will. Materialism (your hypothesis, or belief---the idea that the universe is comprised of nothing more than material causes and their effects) necessarily entails a denial of any such thing as the metaphysical freedom of the mind, freedom of thought that is. This entails the belief that "truth" is entirely illusory. For there to be such a thing as "truth" the mind must be free to distinguish the truth from error and materialism denies that possibility. A mind whose "thoughts" are the mere by-products (effects) of material causes is not free in the metaphysical sense to apprehend anything. Truth, in the materialis universe, is therefore an oxymoron. It is a self-contradiction. Materialists are therefore very much like that very first philosopher---the Cretan who said that all Cretans are liars!
Atheism is a dogmatic position that goes way beyond the evidence and is, in the final analysis, self-refuting.
I have not had opportunity to read further on this subject. But I have cogitated upon it at some length. It occurs to me that the lower animals are seen to make choices, yet no one proclaims them to possess a soul. I have watched one mare come to the mistaken belief that another mare was a danger to the first's foal. And saw her take action on that belief. I do not think there was anything metaphysical about the situation. We know there have been several species of humanoids upon this planet. That evidence is undeniable. Yet, as i understand, only one species can be made in the likeness of God. Only one of those species should have been endowed with the ability to make metaphysical choices. But we know for a fact that more than one species made tools, created fire, and at least one interbred with Homo Sapiens. People study skulls recovered from archeological digs. They can see evidence of evolution of the human brain over millennia through the depressions left inside the skull by the various lobes of the brain. Those people can correlate the newly developed growth of a particular lobe in the ancient brain with a newly discovered talent in the human species. And they can correlate both of these occurrences to the appearance of a new gene in human DNA. For example, cave art appeared at a particular point in history. Also at that point in history the human skull showed evidence of enlargement in the lobe of the brain which has been proven to be responsible for artistic expression. And also a new gene was identified in those remains which caused that development. There are other examples relating to the use of tools, language, and the building of cities. Considering these facts, I can only conclude that Human free choice and creativity are relegated to the field of the metaphysical only because the bio-mechanical workings of the human brain are not at this point fully understood. Though out all of known history, man has encountered unexplainable phenomena. Those phenomena are typically explained away via myth, or as magic. Then Science advances, and the mystery of one phenomena after anther is explained away. And mythology moves on to attempt to explain the next misunderstood phenomena. Based upon my knowledge at this point in time, I believe metaphysics to be nothing more than modern mythology.
People who choose to brew up their own storms bitch loudest about the rain.
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I have not had opportunity to read further on this subject. But I have cogitated upon it at some length.
It occurs to me that the lower animals are seen to make choices, yet no one proclaims them to possess a soul.
I have watched one mare come to the mistaken belief that another mare was a danger to the first's foal. AND HOW DID YOU VERIFY HER "BELIEF"? And saw her take action on that belief. I do not think there was anything metaphysical about the situation. WHY?
We know there have been several species of humanoids upon this planet. DO "WE KNOW" THIS OR IS IT THEORETICAL? That evidence is undeniable. Yet, as i understand, only one species can be made in the likeness of God. Only one of those species should have been endowed with the ability to make metaphysical choices.
But we know for a fact that more than one species made tools, created fire, and at least one interbred with Homo Sapiens. DO "WE KNOW" THIS OR IS IT THEORETICAL?
People study skulls recovered from archeological digs. They can see evidence of evolution of the human brain over millennia through the depressions left inside the skull by the various lobes of the brain.
Those people can correlate the newly developed growth of a particular lobe in the ancient brain with a newly discovered talent in the human species. And they can correlate both of these occurrences to the appearance of a new gene in human DNA. SUCH "CORRELATION" IS QUITE WEAK - NOT ACCEPTED FACT.
For example, cave art appeared at a particular point in history. WHICH PARTICULAR POINT? OR IS THIS NOT SO "PARTICULAR"? Also at that point in history the human skull showed evidence of enlargement in the lobe of the brain which has been proven - (ACTUALLY "PROVEN" ?) to be responsible for artistic expression. And also a new gene was identified in those remains which caused (ACTUALLY "CAUSED"?) that development. THOSE SEEM LIKE SOME GREAT LEAPS OF FAITH REGARDING PROOF AND CAUSATION.
There are other examples relating to the use of tools, language, and the building of cities.
Considering these facts, I can only conclude that Human free choice and creativity are relegated to the field of the metaphysical only because the bio-mechanical workings of the human brain are not at this point fully understood.
Though out all of known history, man has encountered unexplainable phenomena. Those phenomena are typically explained away via myth, or as magic. Then Science advances, and the mystery of one phenomena after anther is explained away. And mythology moves on to attempt to explain the next misunderstood phenomena.
Based upon my knowledge at this point in time, I believe metaphysics to be nothing more than modern mythology.
BASED ON MY KNOWLEDGE AT THIS POINT, GIVEN ONLY THE ABOVE, I AM THINKING THAT YOUR CONCLUSION IS ON A SANDY FOUNDATION.
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I have not had opportunity to read further on this subject. But I have cogitated upon it at some length.
It occurs to me that the lower animals are seen to make choices, yet no one proclaims them to possess a soul.
I have watched one mare come to the mistaken belief that another mare was a danger to the first's foal. AND HOW DID YOU VERIFY HER "BELIEF"? And saw her take action on that belief. I do not think there was anything metaphysical about the situation. WHY?
We know there have been several species of humanoids upon this planet. DO "WE KNOW" THIS OR IS IT THEORETICAL? That evidence is undeniable. Yet, as i understand, only one species can be made in the likeness of God. Only one of those species should have been endowed with the ability to make metaphysical choices.
But we know for a fact that more than one species made tools, created fire, and at least one interbred with Homo Sapiens. DO "WE KNOW" THIS OR IS IT THEORETICAL?
People study skulls recovered from archeological digs. They can see evidence of evolution of the human brain over millennia through the depressions left inside the skull by the various lobes of the brain.
Those people can correlate the newly developed growth of a particular lobe in the ancient brain with a newly discovered talent in the human species. And they can correlate both of these occurrences to the appearance of a new gene in human DNA. SUCH "CORRELATION" IS QUITE WEAK - NOT ACCEPTED FACT.
For example, cave art appeared at a particular point in history. WHICH PARTICULAR POINT? OR IS THIS NOT SO "PARTICULAR"? Also at that point in history the human skull showed evidence of enlargement in the lobe of the brain which has been proven - (ACTUALLY "PROVEN" ?) to be responsible for artistic expression. And also a new gene was identified in those remains which caused (ACTUALLY "CAUSED"?) that development. THOSE SEEM LIKE SOME GREAT LEAPS OF FAITH REGARDING PROOF AND CAUSATION.
There are other examples relating to the use of tools, language, and the building of cities.
Considering these facts, I can only conclude that Human free choice and creativity are relegated to the field of the metaphysical only because the bio-mechanical workings of the human brain are not at this point fully understood.
Though out all of known history, man has encountered unexplainable phenomena. Those phenomena are typically explained away via myth, or as magic. Then Science advances, and the mystery of one phenomena after anther is explained away. And mythology moves on to attempt to explain the next misunderstood phenomena.
Based upon my knowledge at this point in time, I believe metaphysics to be nothing more than modern mythology.
BASED ON MY KNOWLEDGE AT THIS POINT, GIVEN ONLY THE ABOVE, I AM THINKING THAT YOUR CONCLUSION IS ON A SANDY FOUNDATION.
I could lay the skulls out on the table in front of you, and still you would deny the evidence.
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
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I could put the skulls of modern folks in front of you and you would see the variation is astounding. I have done cephalometric measurements on thousands. Most of the skulls, to which you allude, are little more than the extrapolation of a molar or bone fragment. Did you intend to include the Piltdown skull? ;-{>8
AS, seldom have I seen a man so devoted to his faith as you.
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I could put the skulls of modern folks in front of you and you would see the variation is astounding. I have done cephalometric measurements on thousands. Most of the skulls, to which you allude, are little more than the extrapolation of a molar or bone fragment. Did you intend to include the Piltdown skull? ;-{>8
AS, seldom have I seen a man so devoted to his faith as you. So, you are telling me I haven't held 20-30 different exemplars of pre-homosapien skulls?
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
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Campfire 'Bwana
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I could put the skulls of modern folks in front of you and you would see the variation is astounding. I have done cephalometric measurements on thousands. Most of the skulls, to which you allude, are little more than the extrapolation of a molar or bone fragment. Did you intend to include the Piltdown skull? ;-{>8
AS, seldom have I seen a man so devoted to his faith as you. Sort of like a Christian huh?
Don't vote knothead, it only encourages them. Anonymous
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"Self-reliance, free thinking, and wealth is anathema to both the power of the State and the Church." Derby Dude
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