Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Long Range Hunting long range accubond groups, two in one out

Been playing with these since I got my 7 lrm.... they've shown potential, but every time I think I'm on to something, the third shot is 'out'. My Smith said to try another bullet add they were doing that to him and other guys with his rifles.

Had anyone experienced this?

These are from today.

What is your OAL? If you start by kissing the lands and seat deeper by .005 they should start to group better as long as your brass is concentric. If brass is not concentric not much will help. It follows the computer adage..junk in is junk out..

Bill

That is a bullet jacket issue, send them back to nosler and tell them they are junk, or throw them in a lake and try your luck with a different lot.

were they 2nds?

I've heard that some rifles fire the first bullet on a cold barrel slightly outside the group of the subsequent shots - is this the case here? Oops, reread your initial post - it's the third shot that wanders.

Seat them deeper Casey -

I started with a kiss, then .010 off. Groups got better the farther away I got. I need to keep testing with a bigger jump, maybe that will help.

Heavywalker, why do you think that is a jacket issue?

They Are not 2nds.

Yes -

If you are only 0.01 off, I'd then try .04 and then 0.07. Refine from there.

Bedding................

Scope, scope mounts, scope rings.

Scope is a hd5 zeiss, ring/bases are one piece talley lw's I lapped myself.

Stick, I thought bedding too.

Oh it's bedding..................(hint)

Jacket issue is rightt shoot five and bet 3 are in and 2 out

You guys really know your stuff.

This is hilarious!...........

Don't know if it relates to your problem but there have been a few threads on lapping Talley LW's and it seem to be a no no with them

Spin drift most likely. Combined with inferior bedding and hard jackets will do that every time. Are you sure it's not holding one and throwing two?
Just thinking out loud here....

Well, since the first two are usually nearly giving, I would think that it's thrusting the third.


My talleys on my 257 are lapped as well, never had an issue with them.

I just lapped these rings, our was gong the range thing before I lapped them.

Bedding.....................(grin)

Stick, I got it.

Asked the Smith about that."I don't think so, out came out pretty well."

I'm taking it to him this weekend, as the predator action isn't ejecting properly. I'll have him check it out to.

Tell him I said so.

Laughing.............

I'll do that...

For the record, I think you are correct, but I'm not a gun Smith.

I've got the inside scoop and ain't guessin'........(grin)

Stick, it seems pretty egotistical that you, without even asking any questions, proclaim "Bedding" to be the problem, as if it could not possibly be any other thing. That usually bites folks on the ass eventually.

You'll have to pardon my knowing...while you guess................(hint)

I'd say bedding too, check of chipped coatings under the area it screws into.

That or the bedding wasn't done stress free.

Try both, but I'm not one to brag about bedding......

VLD type bullets are normally harder to get the seat just right. Good job

Yep...that is what it is!..................

It made a HUGE difference on my 6x45!










Bedding being f'd, that is

For example:

6x45 Faux Ti, SWFA10X, '335, 55NBT, yada, yada



Compiled looks like this:


90 Scenars:



Compiled:


Stick suggested to "Start at the F'ing Start". I found some chitty stuff going on, mag box binding being one culprit, chit bedding job the other.

Took out all the bedding except for what was in the lug recess, shot this today. Same lot of ammo (55's).



Put together, looks like this:


No 90's, but vertical with 55's was cut from 1.2" to .4 which is a step in the right direction.

Moral of the story?
1. Start at the f'ing start when you start or its over before it begins.
2. Why it worked with the ABLR's? Dunno.
3. I wasted a lot of time/ammo chasing my ass

Here's an old ass article about groups, not a word about seating depth. Who the phhuk knows.

OLD ASS ARTICLE ABOUT GROUPS

Imagine that...................(grin)

You might be the big mouth of the month GFY

As per always,you'll want to start by [bleep] yourself...simply because you WILL get more poozy that way. Hint.

You "hard charging" Mall Ninja's are a hoot!

Happy Pretend to you.................

Barsness wrote a short piece here about rifle troubleshooting. His first approach when groups are erratic is NOT checking the bedding. I trust Barsness's understanding over yours, 'Stick. I recommend a refresher to those who are having random issues with their rifles.

http://www.24hourcampfire.com/newsletters/October_2011.html

I'm afforded the luxury,of not being forced to guess and can only lead you to water....but getta kick outta folks refraining the obvious..............

It might be a bad barrel instead of trying different lot of bullets or a different bullet you should replace the barrel at once. Start small is cheeper and easer it could be bedding but y would one tear a gun down if it could be simple fix found first.

"Might" "maybe" "if" aren't very soothing. Hint.

Hardly "daunting" to start at the [bleep] start and KNOW...but the Window Licking Tutorial is a riot!.................

Best part of your bull [bleep] is right now your trying to figure who is this guy that knows so much more than me and hopping your over confidence can pull your lack of knowledge to the winning side of the debate. I hope it is the bedding and gun turns out to be a shooter so your little ego is not damaged.

There's nothing subject to debate. You are simply in soooooooo far over your head,that you've less than zero inkling and the harder you "try"...the FUNNIER it gets.

Who chews your food for you?................

Your wife have a good day I'm going hunting

Just noticed your awesome avatar picture. What rifle,glass and bullet?

Any pics of the platform?...................

Didn't mean to tie your tongue or have you slurk off...because you were really doing "great"!................

Looks like someone switched their meds and went back with their old profile name

You ALMOST said something about The Rifle.

Almost.................

The floating magazine that moves with the action to remove the mag box binding issue is just another reason I like Sako 85's.

Remy action geography might make them easier to machine but the box mag thing introduces issues

Never had a binding issue with any Remmie magbox,that was assembled to the receiver correctly.

Whether ADL or BDL................

Although I guess a clone, this is a Stiller action.

Not that Stick needs defending but I'll say this -

I like John and his writing a ton. I've learned a metric ton from Stick and his shooting.

They both shoot a lot but I don't know of anyone who's so quick and willing to flog just about anything in R&D like Stick.

His 'diagnosis' isn't from his ass, it's from a hell of a lot of trigger time on multiple platforms with multiple cartridges.


Some guys gloat about buying primers by the 1000. That's probably a week for him, mebbe less. Nothing against JB but I don't know
of ANYONE who is a writer that shoots as much on pure volume alone.

Rifles talk...noone listens.............

The better the componetry,the easier the diagnosis and lotsa folks are in a hurry to overlook that obvious.

If/when assembly and fastener tightness are verified,as well as glass...it's bedding. Rifles shoot loose,they do not shoot tight and I'm ALWAYS going to tighten things more than most,due those simplistic facts.

Chasing one's tail with moot reloading "practices",will yield nothing but lotsa mediocre performance and nothing can be learned when dots aren't connected.

Rest assured,there's method to the madness and Starting At The [bleep] Start can ONLY bear fruit and connect dots.....................(hint)

HuntnShoot,

While I appreciate the confidence, I agree with Stick on this one. When a rifle tends to consistently throw the third shot out, after two close together, odds are very high it's a bedding problem.

I don't recall arguing that bedding couldn't be the problem. I looked at his groups, saw that the 3rd shot wasn't thrown out on all of them, remembered your article, John, wherein you state that you start with a known scope, with screws not overtight, when gun is shooting erratically, and go from there.

I was arguing with Stick that he didn't have enough info to just toss out 'bedding'. He later backpedaled and offered that if the scope, mounts are kosher, to check the bedding.

Don't know how I got into the middle of this. Just trying to help the guy out. In the few rifles that had this problem for me, after farting around with various loads, loosening and then retightening the scope mounts fixed it. Thus I volunteered that. I still think it is good advise. I have far less experience in what constitutes proper bedding of action than I do in what constitutes proper scope mounting to prevent spraying when things heat up.

Your "best" ain't a very pretty picture.

Someone who "knows" as "much" as you,is always going to be better served by asking questions...rather than giving answers.(hint)

It's VERY obviously bedding to anyone with a clue,which keeps you fully out of the mix................(hint)

You're right, you didn't did say bedding couldn't be the problem. But I never said you did.

Casey apparently has confidence in his scope and mounts, and says he's seeing a pretty consistent pattern of the third shot being a flier. In my experience, scope/mount/bullet problems can produce a flier at any time, but when there's a pattern of the 3rd shot being a flier the odds are pretty good for a bedding problem.

Please note that I didn't say it definitely was a bedding problem, just that the odds were higher.

My smith is ADAMENT that it is not the bedding... I politely asked him to check it out and see what he sees. He says he has had other clients shoot the same bullets and have the same thing happen, they when switched to Bergers and viola.... 2" groups at 700.

Snake Oil is routinely hilarious and for alotta reasons...............

Casey,

Didn't you have the same issues with your .257 Roy?

So if your Smith is right just throw every 3rd shell over your shoulder that should cure things. Then take the over the shoulder bunch and shoot you a group with those. His theory should have them just a zinging.

2" groups @ 700 because it's Bergers? That dude is special.

Have your smith check the bedding with a dial indicator to rule it out,!

Greg,

Kind of. Inconsistent, but not two in one out. A new crown and now it's shooting really well. Last group was 5 under an inch.

I'd snug the action screws a bit tighter and give it another go and see what happens.

Shodd

Firstcoues, are you giving up on the LRAB? Saw your ad in the classifieds.

Im going through the same thing at the moment with a Montana in .300 win. Shooting 180gr accubonds I almost always get two shots touching/almost same hole then the third shot is a flyer. Gonna try some different bullets this week to see if its the rifle or the projectile. If it is the rifle, then its back to the drawing board.

It galls me that some gunsmiths are so arrogant that they won't admit that a customer's accuracy issue might be something THEY created.

I feel Casey's pain. He spent his money and has what I feel is an arrogant gunsmith.

Some of the gunsmiths I have had experiences with are not rifle looneys and don't even handload! Heck one guy is primarily a bow hunter! How can they be expected to understand when we complain of accuracy issues?

I sure liked hearing that Charlie Sisk figured out JB's issue so easily. He is my kind of gunsmith.


I don't think it would surprise many that I have encountered some very simple issues that should have been prevented by more care from the gunsmith. Bet other members could add to this horror list:

Poor crown:

I don't know of a single gunsmith around here that uses a borescope to verify the crown is good. Heck I had one crown that had a burr because the smith used a live center in the bore to support it for threading for a brake. I had to show him the burr with high magnification!



Bedding epoxy in blind holes:

Encountered this several times! One friend found this in a $7000 custom after tearing his hair out trying to make the gun shoot. He got pissed and tore the gun apart at the gunrange and inspected all pieces in bright sunlight. We called it the dreaded booger issue after that.



Action screw to bottom out in a blind hole:

Bedding the rifle lowered the action in the stock causing this issue.
------------
I have reached the point that IF a gunsmith does something for me I take the rifle apart and go through it before I shoot it.
I just cannot waste my time putting together a load if the rifle isn't sound.

If your first two shots are nearly touching and consistent in POI the solution seems simple - kill what you are shooting at with bullet #1 and if necessary a well placed follow up. I only recall one time when the 3rd round came into play and in hindsight that animal was dead but didn't know it yet.

I'm not giving up on them, but I want to test his theory.

THIS....




You and the other guys need to try another smith.

Couple of issues to check:

Bedding tops the list. To check the bedding for a right handed shooter. With your left hand, stand the rifle on it's butt. Next, grab the rifle with your left hand near the end of the forearm. With your left hand, Jam the tip of the index finger on your left hand between the barrel and the tip of the forearm. Now, loosen and tighten the front and rear guard screw. If you feel the action springing away from the stock, your gun is out of bed. In a perfect world, you should not feel more than .002 movement.

Check clearance on the magazine box. The box should freefloat between the floor plate and the action. If the floor plate is pushing up on the center of the action, it will cause stress on the action.

On Remingtons, if the trigger pins protrude enough to dig into the side of the stock, it will cause stress on the action. Also, if the Spring screw on the trigger housing is backed out on the trigger to the point to where it is touching the stock, it will cause stress.

Leupold a few years back made some screws out of spec on their scope bases. I have had a similar issue on a Rifle, and took the rifle completely apart. I found hash marks on the bottom of the front scope base screw indicating that the screw was digging into the threads on the barrel tenon. This will screw up accuracy big time. When installing scope bases on an action for the first time, I always tighten up the front scope base screw, then remove the screw looking at the bottom of the screw, insuring that there is clearance when the screw is tightened down.

After chasing down the mechanical things, next is seating depth, load, and primer choice. Other than mechanical issues, weak primer choice for the type of powder can be an issue, however this is really grasping for straws. I have seen a little hotter primer cure this type of issue, but it is rare indeed.

When this type of thing happens to me on a new barrel, I check the mechanicals, use a known scope of proven quality,playing with seating depth, change primers, then change powders.

I start off with the bullets kissing the lands, always! If I don't get bug holes at this point, thenI will go to .010, 0.30, 0.050, then 0.100 bullet jump on NON Barnes bullets. On custom barrels, I have not had to jump through these hoops, this is what happens on factory barrels.

With all the above crap don't over look the fact that the barrel does not like that bullet or like the powder you are using. I have got trapped into trying to make a barrel shoot a particular bullet or powder when the barrel may like a different kind.

It does not take a lot of shots to determine if you are on the right track, two shot groups will get you there in a hurry unless you are shooting in gusty winds. When gusty, you might want to move the target into 50 yards...you can still get your initial testing done at 50 when you are pinched for time with windy conditions.

If the bullets are not going into a tiny bug hole, you are not there yet.

I wouldn't conclude anything about a gun after only shooting one particular bullet.

That being said, I would guess bedding too. I have a gun that was doing the same thing with several bullets, sent it off for real bedding. I didn't want to dick with it anymore.

I gotta admit,I do enjoy watching folks chase their tails...with black & white staring them in the face.

This is great!..............

If those were Bergers I would reply "awesome groups!"

Now you don't know any more than before you asked the question!!

Where do shots 4 through 10 go?

#2, seat your bullets deeper.

Very sensible approach Bob.
Too much emphasis on single groups, which is unfortunately "the usual" for range assessment and inadequate to determine a root cause.

AGW: Exactly.

I don't shoot a lot of 10 shot groups at 100 yards,because I get restless and anxious to get it to longer distance; but when a rifle is new I will grind it out to see whether those shots that are "out" are part of the rifles normal grouping.More rounds will tell us that.

Also,100 yard groups "lie" a lot and I recall one rifle that shot tight 100 yard groups for 3 shots, but there was a gremlin....one shot was always on the low side,yet the group was tight.Shooting at 400 yards showed that shot to be WAY low and well out of the group; vertical was not consistent and the rifle was double grouping.It was the load.

RCamuglia's Audette Ladder might have showed this and that's another way to find this stuff out. I was doing that but in a different way.


Either way when a rifle and load is new, and behaving oddly, I increase number of shots to find out what gives....and the quicker I get off the bags at 100 yards the better off I am and the faster I figure out what's happening.

Casey,
Are these the bullets you previously posted on that were deforming while seating? There may be some internal damage in your fliers...
Mike

It's getting even FUNNIER,which I never saw coming.

Bedding.................(hint)

Mike,

Yes. But that was solved with been turning. Thanks Dennis!

Stick, Smith has the rifle with the first instruction being to please check bedding.

I'd of wiped my own ass and cut to the chase.

Hint.................

Not sure what is a better idea...Letting the same "smith" fix a gun that he screwed the pooch on in the first place, or shooting 10 shot groups.

Fork that. Give it to someone who builds shooters...

W

Can only leads folks to water and can't make them drink.

Though I wouldn't...even if I could................(grin)

There is no use trying to argue with Stumpie. You can only be reasonable with reasonable people.

I don't feel compelled to apologize,for being afforded the luxury of not being forced to guess...despite it being VERY unfair to you.

Now you were almost gonna say something about The Rifle,but the cat got your tongue.

I wonder why?

Laughing...............

You may have some useful knowledge to share.

If you could present that knowledge is a more civilized manner it would greatly improve the effectiveness of your contributions.

You are CERTAINLY at the mercy of your comprehension and that ain't much of a bargaining chip.

Funniest part is,even dumb as you are...you know how dumb you are and that your only move is to Whine.

I suggest you shut up and take notes,then apply same.

Hint..................

That's interesting. Who's launching personal attacks, and who's providing useful advise?

I merely made a suggestion how you could modify your behavior to improve the forum. Whether you choose to take the advice offered is strictly up to you.

PLEASE find me "mistaken".

It will be funny!

Hint..................

I didn't say you were wrong, I said you could improve you presentation style. If you are as knowledgeable as you claim, you shouldn't need the sarcasm.

Funny how facts,unsettle them who do the least...the most.

Hint..................

You claim knowledge you do not possess.

As for your accusation about being unsettled by facts, if your've read any significant number of my past posts, you would realize your assertion it completely inapplicable to me. Facts are facts, however there are many different ways a person can choose to communicate a set of facts. Your style has a tendency to be very abrasive, which reduces the effectiveness of your communication.

Is this when the awkward silence starts?

Laughing!................