Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Predators and Varmints Prairie dog 223 help

I've been invited to go on a prairie dog shoot next year - actually have been invited numerous times, going to make it this time!

Rifles that will be making the trip:

Savage 93 heavy barrel 17hmr topped w/ 3200 7-21x40, shooting 20grn bullets

Remington 700 rebarreled to 6.5 Creedmoor, topped w/ SS 3-9x42, shooting 123 Scenars.



Obviously that leaves a gap - I need at least one small bore centerfire, so I picked up a new Ruger American SS in 223, haven't bought a scope for it yet or loaded/shot the first round. I need help w/ optics and bullets.

Talking to some of the guys that are making this trip about how they set-up their 223's and they tend to load mid-weight bullets (55grn Vmax), zero their rifles at 200 w/ scopes that top out at 12-16x. They range the targets, but they don't click their scopes or use a reticle, just Kentucky windage (again, talking 223 only - they do things differently w/ their 243's, 6mm's, etc).

I have never been on a prairie dog shoot, so obviously I've got a lot to learn, but it seems to me that a heavier bullet w/ a better BC and a scope w/ repeatable turrets would work better for this. I was thinking of loading up some 68grn BTHP's and topping w/ another SS 3-9x42, mil/mil.

Am I on the wrong track here?

David

David,

I love shooting prairie dogs...

I'd be buying as many Nosler 40 grain tipped Varmageddon's as I needed, then I'd secure some TAC. I'd look hard at 28 grains too -- that load is a hammer and super accurate in our 3 RAR 223's. You should be pushing 3800fps, maybe slightly under.

Grab a SS 10x and some Talley 30mm's and you're set!

Vaporize 'em and have some fun.

SAS,

Why do I want the lighter faster rounds instead of rounds w/ better BC's?

Sidenote:

Shot the 6.5CM at the range today for the first time. Shot a bunch of different bullets w/ various loads of RL17. 123 Amax, 123 Scenar, 123 SST, 127 LRX, 125 Partition all shot to same POI, all tiny little groups! Can't believe you sold that rifle !

Thanks Again!

David

The 40 grainers mean you dont have as much holdover issues until you get to longer ranges and more importantly they don't recoil as much as heavier bullets and allow you to call your own shots and watch the carnage in the scope. If you are taking the creedmoor let it be your long range/high wind gun and get your 223 perking with any tipped 40 grainer and use it as your mid range gun. top with a fixed or variable with a top end between 9 and 14x and enjoy watching the dogs helicopter in your scope. I find that I always crank my higher variables back to that power range to beat mirage and to watch the hit.
Just my .02

Dude, You got it right on. I seldom take my Swift anymore, just a BDL 223 (4x12 VariX3)w/fast 40 gr. Varms and a low wall Hornet (8x Lyman) w/40 Varms and Lilgun. Also an Anchutz 22 and some sort of a "Mystery" gun which this year was a .410 SxS. I sure wish I'd loaded more than 10 boxes for it though! BTW was shooting gophers in MT w/this the 17th year in a row. The 68's drop too fast past 250 yards (max vel per Hornady is 2900 fps) and you will be constantly shooting high or low as the beasties are all spread out, not w/the fast 40's though. I'd also strongly recommend a temp. insensitive powder as temps. can vary from 45 to over a 100 and you don't want a bunch of ammo you can't shoot, I've seen it.-Muddy

David,

What the other guys said about using lighter bullets is spot-on, but another couple of factors are:

1) Heavier bullets don't drift much less in the wind less than lighter bullets at the typical ranges prairie dogs are killed. I've been shooting PD's for 45 years now, and have shot with several national benchrest champions, long-time military snipers and instructors, and winning high-power shooters. I haven't seen one yet who could hit more dogs than they miss in typical wind conditions beyond about 350 yards, and out to 350 a light, fast bullet won't drift any more than a heavier bullet. Run the numbers on a ballistic program and you'll see what I mean.

2) Heavier bullets like a 68 BTHP don't kill dogs nearly as quickly or spectacularly as light plastic-tipped bullets. They also ricochet more easily, which can be a factor on some dog towns.

I do prefer a ballistic reticle combined with turrets, because both help me hit more dogs. And the guys who haven't used either before are usually converted after they give 'em a try.

Probably the most elite group ever assembled to shoot prairie dogs last June, did what JB is saying. John left early but he won't do that again. We talked about him the next 2 days.

40 grain plastic tips are the way to go. The majority of shooting that weekend was with 222 mag and 223's. The only difference was the 222 mags did account for more hits. Ballistically they are about equal, so your 223 with 40 grainers and good powder will become your favorite.

Don't be afraid of H-335 powder, I know there are rumors of it's finicky nature, but those people still believe in Zombies and Vampires.

I have to agree with JB about the scopes too. The more scope you have the better your shooting will be. I would also say that 3 guns isn't nearly enough...

Thanks everyone, I appreciate the insight. its starting to make more sense to me now.

Interesting comment on not bringing enough rifles. My shooting partners eluded to that as well. Before I recently purchased this Ruger American 223, the 6.5 Creedmoor was the smallest centerfire I owned so if I want another I'm going to have to buy it.

Just got through paying for my first semester of college for my son - rifle funds aren't what they used to be! I have $700 in my budget for glass. I also have two older Bushnell Elites, a 4200 4-16x40 and a 3200 5-15x40 that could be pressed into service. Both scopes have decent optics and hold zero.

Would I be better off buying another 223 and mounting those older Bushnells or stay the course and buy some decent glass for the 1 rifle? I don't have the budget to buy two rifles and two scopes for this right now.

Thanks,

David

JB and that shrapnel guy know what they are talking about.

Speaking of the serpent's lair, I had the privilege of finding out why one shooter would dust so many of the few that showed up close or in the middle of that 300-350 range before I extrapolated with "hold under" or turned turrets: a ballistic reticle that he used with proficiency.
It provided more hits than the BC of my 75gr. A-maxes, at least til the wind died down on Sunday (I'm sticking to that)!

The other rule is proficiency; guys who dog shoot a lot are better dog hunters, period.

JB will lean you towards a 204, but I think most folks on a budget are better served with a 223.

Right now I'm toying with the idea of another fast twist 222 Magnum with both turrets and a mil-dot system, if only for the 'dogs....because I could be more UBER.

You are on the right track�but rest assured your .223 will get the bulk of the shooting, so be prepared for that.

A 222 wouldn't be bad either...depends on the oodles of brass availability.

You know I love the deuce, its my fave for gophs, but PDs are bigger, meaner. They need the extra horsepower of a .223


Actually a fave combo is the .223 and 68 gr BTHPs..bucks the wind and extends the range�

Just built a 1 in 12 deuce for a pard�that MoFo shoots!

PD's are so big and mean they need a 222 Magnum and 75 A-Max....bucks wind, extends range and still "puffs"...

What is this 222 Magnum that you and Shrap speak of?

A few other things to think about -

1. The style of shooting your partners like to do.
Some folks like to take turns spotting and shooting, in that case you would have enough time for your rifle to cool so you will probably not need two rifles. If they shoot "free-for-all" where everyone is shooting independently without spotting for each other then you may need two rifles. But that in itself is a big "if", it is dependent on the number of rounds per day. In my world a 500 round day is a big day, most days are closer to 200 to 250 and one gun is doable although it will get a little warm at times. With the proliferation of folks shooting PD's now it is becoming more difficult to have big number days unless you have a very select spot that doesn't get shot very often.

2. Scopes -
Your Bushnell Elites will serve you just fine, the 4200 would be my first pick since the optics are better than the 3200. But I have run a 3200 5-15x40 on my backup rifle for a lot of years and it has always served me well. Most days it is hard to use more than 12 to 14 power because of mirage.

3. Binoculars -
They have not been mentioned yet but a good binocular will find a lot of PD's that may otherwise be overlooked. There are a lot of decent bino's out there for $400 or so.

4. Bullets -
As mentioned 40 gr plastic tipped, my favorites and the ones that shoot best in my rifles are the Nosler BT's, plus they give great action. There are a lot of powders that will get you into the 3700 fps range with the ballistic tips and in my experience they don't seem to be as effected by the wind as some of the others although the difference is minor. More importantly find the one that shoots sub-MOA in your rifle and be happy with it.

Go, have fun and by the time the shoot ends you will have a lot better idea of what you may need to change. I have been shooting gophers and PD's all my life, which has been a long time, and still enjoy it more than any other sport.

drover

UBER is spelled 222 mag X4...

I'll have five at my disposal if I get out there agin'....

I don't know....he's such an iconic figure that they have become very hard to find as of late....so I've resorted to having a reamer and have contacted gunsmiths to keep my own sources protected....

Canazes,
You are talking about what to do with scopes...Here's my $.02. Good optics make the difference b/t a fun day and one of misery. After a day on the scope, you will find that you are more fatigued from eye strain than recoil. With that said, get the best optics you can afford and whatever you do, DO NOT forget the binoculars. They will become your best friend when scouting for pdogs to shoot.

BTW, my go to load in .223 was a 55gr VMAX with 25 grains of Benchmark. It produces bugholes.

...and lest we forget--those giant pasture poodles also teach military tactics at west point...

A few more notes:

The main reason I like lighter-recoiling rifles for shooting PD�s is I can watch where my bullets hit through the scope, rather than depending on a spotter. A spotter isn�t usually nearly as good as doing it yourself, because (1) they�re usually using binoculars without as much magnification as the rifle�s scope, and (2) they�re not directly behind the bullet�s flight, like the shooter. Both result in less accurate spotting of the bullet�s impact. Plus, what they call �six inches right� may not be what you think is six inches right.

The .223 has several advantages as the primary PD round, including adequate ballistics for typical ranges, plus plenty of brass and bullets. But I prefer the .204 Ruger because with 40-grain bullets it shoots a little flatter and drifts less in the wind than the .223, due to the higher BC of .204 40�s (especially the V-Max, my favorite, though any of the plastic-tipped 40�s are good). And when the wind�s not blowing very hard, 32-grain bullets shoot flatter and provide more �lift� to the dogs they hit. I�ve owned four .204�s now and all have shot 32�s and 40�s to the same place at 100 yards, so the two bullets can be used interchangeably in different conditions.

As for smaller rounds, the .17 Fireball is also great out to 300-350 on calmer days, and the .17 HMR is a great PD round for starting on a town, since the report is so mild it doesn�t spook nearby dogs like a centerfire. But it ain�t much use on towns that have been recently shot already.

That�s where a small centerfire like the .17 or .22 Hornet works great. I�ve used both and really like the .17 Hornet these days, but the .22 Hornet with plastic-tipped 40�s is about as good, especially with a scope with a multi-dot reticle. My Ruger 1B gets around 3100 with 40 plastic-tips, which turns it into a 250-300 yard round on calm days�and the .22 Hornet doesn�t eat barrels like the bigger .22 centerfires. (Have tried 30-35 grain bullets at higher velocities, but they just don�t hang with the 40 plastic-tips even at 150-200 yards, whether in wind-drift, trajectory or impact on dogs.)

I also bring along a rifle chambered for a bigger round for after the dogs within 400 yards are killed or down their holes, either a bigger .224 with a 1-8 or 1-9 twist for heavier bullets, or a 6mm or 6.5mm. I can often spot my own shots even with these rifles, because they�re all much heavier than my .204, and at 500+ yards the rifle usually comes down out of recoil by the time the bullet gets there. However, even though these are more effective at longer ranges, the usual result is what some shooters call �expensive dogs,� because the hits-per-round goes down considerably except on abnormally calm days. But hitting a few way out there is often worth it�.

A +1 for the .204�you got me talked into it and it is a definite fave�I recommended the 223 for all the obvious reasons to the OP.

If hes not a hard core shooter/handloader and doesn't already have 1000 rounds of .204 loaded ( like some folks we know ) it will be easier to find and accumulate.

The wind bucking ability of a 40 grain .204 is surprising...

Yeah, especially the 40 V-Max, as I noted--and luckily I've got a pile of .204 brass (which ain't going to be turned into .22-204's). But the difference ain't enough for somebody just starting out to worry about.

One interesting thing about 6mm varmint bullets is that the lightweights such as the 55 Ballistic Tip sometimes have higher BC's than the same weight .224. This is because the 1-12 or 1-14 twist in many .224's won't stabilize a really long 55, and the 1-9 or 1-10 twist in typical 6mm's will. The 55 BT at 4000+ is a hell of a long-range PD bullet on calmer days.

Much appreciated all!

So the question remains - what would you do?

Pick up a new 204Ruger Predator to accompany the 223 American and use the 2 aforementioned Bushnell scopes (4200 4-16x40 & 3200 5-15x40) or stick with just the 223 American and buy a scope with quality turrets/reticle (thinking still SS 3-9x42)?

I don't have the budget to buy two rifles and two new scopes and compnents to load ammo (in addition to the ammo for the 6.5CM and 17hmr) for this trip.

Thanks,

David

3x9 is good!

Yeah, a good 3-9x is a lot more effective for most PD shooting than many people would believe, and the 3-9x SS on the .223 would work really well.

And after you burn out the .223 barrel you can screw on a .204....

So you would buy the new scope and only take 1 small bore centerfire?

David

Not me! Id take a schittload of small bore center fires , but you said this was a first for you and you don't have a schittload to take�so yes�the .223 would be the go to gun for me ( as it was when I started PDs�)

OK, sounds like a consensus.

Need to stock up on components and start loading while I have time...

I appreciate the help.

Thanks,

David

Have fun!

THAT's funny right there.....especially when SOME folks we know bring that much FACTORY ammo!

Nope. Borrow more rifles.

Someone you know has to have a 223 or 222 lying around,,,,

While there is a lot of wisdom given here.... I sometimes walk a different path....I prefer the 40 grainers myself... but if you can find them, the Non Lead bullets are as long as heavier bullets, but are lighter than the 40s...so they have a good long range potential...( although I would say that 80% plus of both prairie dogs and sage rats I shoot are within 200 yds or less)...

I also prefer to use faster powders.... for economy, lower barrel heat allowing you to shoot longer before having to let the barrel cool down, which also makes the barrel last longer in the long run...

About the slowest powder I prefer to use for varmints is 4198...and RL 7....

most of my varmint loads for prairie dogs or sage rats is SR 4759, my beloved Blue Dot... but H 110 and 4227 and even 2400 isn't bad...400 to 500 rounds out of a pound of powder is easier on the wallet, which just makes me able to load more bullets instead of saving any big bucks...

and the wisest things said about optics, is the better the optics, the less the eye strain on a long day of shooting...

I've had to cut days short with shooting time still available, because I had a head ache from scope squint for 5 hours, that even a hand full of aspirin or tylenol wouldn't put a dent in....

doesn't happen with good optics.....

no one mentioned a good old 22 Long Rifle either....I prefer to have one along, for those time when something pops up real close to your shooting position.. ( my shooting bench is the hood of my 4 Runner).... I have several which I love each... but a 10/22 with a 1 to 4 scope on top... or a Model 94/22 in 22 Long Rifle, with a 6 power Weaver on top...propped up against the tire or brush guard, quick to pick up and put into action...

as far as Blue Dot or SR 4759 loads... with a regular ADL Rem for instance, with a sporter barrel.....not only can I see the shots in the scope reticle...not losing sight picture... but I can shoot that one rifle all afternoon, averaging 3 or 4 shots every two minutes and it not heat up enough for me to have to let it cool... if It does, a few moments blasting away with the 22 LR, and the 223 is cooled enough to be put back in action...

and if a barrel gums up enough, I carry a Bore Snake, and a quick run thru the barrel and I am out of the pits and back on the track....

and as Ingwe said.. any varmint shooter with experience has 1000 plus rounds READY TO GO.. as any given time...

heck not even counting the 3000 rounds I have ready to go NOW.. for next season, I have 2500 Plastic Tipped 40 grainers to reload, along with 1800 or more 53 V Maxes.... 16 lbs of H 322, 20 pounds of SR 4759, 12 pounds of 4198, and 10 to 12 pounds of Blue Dot to load this winter, getting ready for next years season....

with 9 223s and 5 22.250s sitting in the gun cabinet, 5 22 LRs, 2 22Mags, and 3 17 HMRs ( with about a lowly 1000 or so rounds of ammo for that....


Its an addiction, what can I say...

I grew up in prairie dog country and started shooting them in 1949 with a 22 RF rifle. I started looking the perfect p dog rifle some years ago and have shot p dogs with 17 HM2, 17 HMR, 17 Hornet, 17 Fireball , 17 Rem, 204 Ruger, 22 LR RF 22 WMR RF, 22 Hornet, 221 Fireball, 222 Rem, 223 Rem, 22-250 Rem, 220 Swift,243 Win, and a few big game rifles . I reload ammo for each of the center fire rifles. The 40 grain bullet is good for the 223 Rem but I have also used a 52 grain . Since getting a 204 Ruger rifle I have not shot the 223s very much. I like 6-18 X AO scopes on my p dog rifles. A good p dog rifle is one that will shoot sub 1/2 inch five shot 100 yard groups. In the spring when there are a lot of close in shots I use the 17 RF rifles. I then move up to the more power full 17s and 204 rifles as the dumb ones are shot off. By late fall I ll take out the 22-250, 220, and 243 rifles. The 223 Rem and 204 Ruger cartridges are fine for p dog shooting but if you come in the spring a 17 RF or 17 Hornet is handy to also have.

I have used from 22 hornet to 25/308. And always have a 223 but since to 20 cal came about. For the hand loader it is tough to beat the 20 tac as the perfict all around p dog cal. Although I would never go without a 22/250 or swift. And never leave the hornet behind. A sako 222 always makes the trip also..

Slacker..

Picked up the new American yesterday - it's a surprisingly well made solid POS! Found a 2.5-10x56 Trijicon in the back of the safe from when my primary varmint hunting was night shooting hogs. The Trijicon is top heavy and klunky on this rifle, but might not be to bad for bench shooting.

Haven't had the chance to shoot it yet, been monsoon conditions here all day. I did pick up some factory Winchester 68grn BTHP's and some American Eagle 50grn hollow points at Academy today so I'll have something to shoot in it tomorrow or Monday. Time to start accumulating brass, bullets, powder, primers, etc....

David

I've used that very scope for PD shooting, and it worked pretty darn well off a bench.

hmmm


If I can get away with using the Trijicon that may leave a hole in the budget for another rifle....

204Ruger?

David

Well, uh, YEAH! As a matter of fact I had the Trijicon on a .204....

Listen to these guys. They know PD shooting. A lot of your friends will know only what they have read.

Me, I have killed a bunch of prairie dogs years ago. I used an open sighted ..22 lr at ranges of usually around 50-70 yards with open sights. That may work, but it is not nearly as much fun as vaporizing them with a speedy center fire.

We have few left in most places. We have a small colony that we attempt to "manage" to a consistent population. The other extreme is the industrial park at Big Spring, TX, (formerly Webb AFB). Last time I was there, you had to kick them out of the way. They were likely in a die off from disease ( or poisoned). Either way, not good.

Good shooting,

Jack

I think you're right on track! A few comments:

Drop is easier to dope than wind and it seems the wind varies a bit. The bullets with high BC for the 223 are good, in my opinion.
I like 223 for the light end of prairie dog shooting. I recently bought a 204 Ruger as I've heard high praises for that. My other rifles are 6mm's. I had a lot of old loads with 75 grain hollow points the last time out. In the future I'll be trying the 58 grain Hornady's. I tried hitting dogs at 450 with my 223's and I was holding high and into the wind about a foot. It was luck more than skill when I hit. The 6mm's are better at that range, in my opinion. I think that you'll find the 6.5 Creedmore to be your long range rifle. I suspect that you'll be looking for a light stream lined bullet for that.