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Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 26,250
Campfire Ranger
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OP
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 26,250 |
Here's the story,
I've ran Fed primers in my hunting rifles almost exclusively the past 20 odd years. Probably 7-8 years ago I picked up a brick of WLR's, and they've been sitting in my loading cabinet ever since.
Last fall I snatched a 1983 vintage M700 in 243 that is almost pristine. The rifle was clean, but the first thing I always do is disassemble a new to me rifle, including pulling the firing pin assembly out of the bolt and cleaning everything. I learned the hard way a LOOOONG time ago that an accumulation of gunk in the bolt body can slow down a firing pin sufficiently to prevent ignition. This rifle has been in the safe since other than the two trips to the range. In other words, the bolt ain't dirty.
I decided to dedicate that brick of WLR's primers to this rifle.
This spring I had one fail-to fire with new, unfired Noz brass. Today, my first time out with this rifle since, I had about 5 failures out of 25 rounds with unfired Noz brass. I'm igniting H4831.
The indentations on the primers of the failed rounds appear normal--no light strikes I can see anyway.
I'm trying to remember if Win rifle primers have a bit thicker walls than other primers? Obviously there is some other issue, but.......?
Casey
Casey
Not being married to any particular political party sure makes it a lot easier to look at the world more objectively...
Having said that, MAGA.
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Joined: Nov 2011
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 30,976 |
Winchester primers have a soft cup.
They are what you switch to when others fail to go boom.
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
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Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,313
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,313 |
Sounds like you have a bad lot. Are they the stainless cup or the newer brass cups? I run WW primers in my M1's and have never had a problem.
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Joined: Jan 2001
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 58,530 Likes: 5 |
Here's the story,
I've ran Fed primers in my hunting rifles almost exclusively the past 20 odd years. Probably 7-8 years ago I picked up a brick of WLR's, and they've been sitting in my loading cabinet ever since.
Last fall I snatched a 1983 vintage M700 in 243 that is almost pristine. The rifle was clean, but the first thing I always do is disassemble a new to me rifle, including pulling the firing pin assembly out of the bolt and cleaning everything. I learned the hard way a LOOOONG time ago that an accumulation of gunk in the bolt body can slow down a firing pin sufficiently to prevent ignition. This rifle has been in the safe since other than the two trips to the range. In other words, the bolt ain't dirty.
I decided to dedicate that brick of WLR's primers to this rifle.
This spring I had one fail-to fire with new, unfired Noz brass. Today, my first time out with this rifle since, I had about 5 failures out of 25 rounds with unfired Noz brass. I'm igniting H4831.
The indentations on the primers of the failed rounds appear normal--no light strikes I can see anyway.
I'm trying to remember if Win rifle primers have a bit thicker walls than other primers? Obviously there is some other issue, but.......?
Casey
I hate Winchester primers,almost as much as Nosler brass. Headspace. Hint.................
Brad says: "Can't fault Rick for his pity letting you back on the fire... but pity it was and remains. Nothing more, nothing less. A sad little man in a sad little dream."
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Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 30,976
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 30,976 |
The indentations on the primers of the failed rounds appear normal--no light strikes I can see anyway It doesn't sounds like a head space issue. I once has a similar experience with a brick of Fed 215's. About 1 in 10 wouldn't go bang. It was just a bad batch of primers.
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
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Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 26,250
Campfire Ranger
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OP
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 26,250 |
I hate Winchester primers,almost as much as Nosler brass.
Headspace.
Hint.................
I didn't want to go there...... I'm thinking (hoping) that any "headspace" issue is the brass. Now that its been fired...... Need to break out the Stoney Point and check the datum on the new Noz vs fired Noz brass
Casey
Not being married to any particular political party sure makes it a lot easier to look at the world more objectively...
Having said that, MAGA.
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Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 21,955
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 21,955 |
Norma has a tendency to make brass on the short end....
Also never knew Win primers to be "soft"....
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Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 26,250
Campfire Ranger
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OP
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 26,250 |
Sounds like you have a bad lot. Are they the stainless cup or the newer brass cups? I run WW primers in my M1's and have never had a problem. They're the older color--this brick is probably 7-8 years old.
Casey
Not being married to any particular political party sure makes it a lot easier to look at the world more objectively...
Having said that, MAGA.
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Joined: May 2005
Posts: 14,104
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 14,104 |
I have been using W-W large rifle primers exclusively in non-magnum cartridges ever since I started handloading almost fifty years ago. I have never had one fail to fire. Must be a bad lot, or else they have somehow been contaminated. I would contact W-W customer service and see if they would replace them.
Ben
Some days it takes most of the day for me to do practically nothing...
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Joined: Jan 2001
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 58,530 Likes: 5 |
The indentations on the primers of the failed rounds appear normal--no light strikes I can see anyway It doesn't sounds like a head space issue. I once has a similar experience with a brick of Fed 215's. About 1 in 10 wouldn't go bang. It was just a bad batch of primers. You are beyond clueless...............
Brad says: "Can't fault Rick for his pity letting you back on the fire... but pity it was and remains. Nothing more, nothing less. A sad little man in a sad little dream."
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 58,530 Likes: 5
Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 58,530 Likes: 5 |
Of course it's the brass.
Hint...................
Brad says: "Can't fault Rick for his pity letting you back on the fire... but pity it was and remains. Nothing more, nothing less. A sad little man in a sad little dream."
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 58,530 Likes: 5
Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 58,530 Likes: 5 |
Norma has a tendency to make brass on the short end....
Also never knew Win primers to be "soft".... They aren't soft,but oft undersized..................
Brad says: "Can't fault Rick for his pity letting you back on the fire... but pity it was and remains. Nothing more, nothing less. A sad little man in a sad little dream."
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 58,530 Likes: 5
Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 58,530 Likes: 5 |
Headspace................
Brad says: "Can't fault Rick for his pity letting you back on the fire... but pity it was and remains. Nothing more, nothing less. A sad little man in a sad little dream."
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Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 26,250
Campfire Ranger
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OP
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 26,250 |
The new Noz brass is measuring 2.620 off the datum, the fired brass is measuring 2.627-2.630. I''m thinking that's a fair amount of "growth"......
I wondered at the possibility on the drive home, but didn't really think it was likely Noz/Norma was undersized enough to create "headspace".
What the snarf is Norma thinking?
Casey
Casey
Not being married to any particular political party sure makes it a lot easier to look at the world more objectively...
Having said that, MAGA.
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 58,530 Likes: 5
Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 58,530 Likes: 5 |
Norma sucks heavy ass.
I'm "surprised" it was headspace..................(grin)
Brad says: "Can't fault Rick for his pity letting you back on the fire... but pity it was and remains. Nothing more, nothing less. A sad little man in a sad little dream."
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 58,530 Likes: 5
Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 58,530 Likes: 5 |
The new Noz brass is measuring 2.620 off the datum, the fired brass is measuring 2.627-2.630. I''m thinking that's a fair amount of "growth"......
I wondered at the possibility on the drive home, but didn't really think it was likely Noz/Norma was undersized enough to create "headspace".
What the snarf is Norma thinking?
Casey
GOOD habit to remove striker assembly and start adding tape to Virgin headstamps. It be enlightening. Hint. Start at the start................
Brad says: "Can't fault Rick for his pity letting you back on the fire... but pity it was and remains. Nothing more, nothing less. A sad little man in a sad little dream."
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 17,289
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 17,289 |
Let me try this ...
Just for giggles I'd measure the protrusion of the firing pin. Specs vary but .060" is a good number.
You never know til you know.
How's that?
Is it clueless enough?
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Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 13,860
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 13,860 |
Need to break out the Stoney Point and check the datum on the new Noz vs fired Noz brass
This. This happens a lot with Steyr Scouts as their chambers are Euro and about four-thousandths longer than SAAMI. Put a short case with a hard mil primer and you'll get an occasional failure to fire. That and I'd take that 700 bolt apart and clean it.
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Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,943 |
It sounds like it was headspace but I did have a misfire with a WLR last week. The batch was probably from 8 years ago or so too. Re-cambered the round and it went off on the second try.
The do seem to be a little undersized too as mentioned compared to CCI 200�s.
The truth angers those whom it does not convince
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 6,518 |
The OP said he had already cleaned the bolt assembly.
If we live long enough, we all have regrets. But the ones that nag at us the most are the ones in which we know we had a choice.
Doug
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